The London Lounge

Dear all, new forum member here. I have a question for the formalwear experts around here.

I'm about to commission a 4x1 peak-lapel DB dinner jacket from Steed. This will be based on a terrific 4x1 DB sport coat that they've previously made for me (see picture below).

The question is what type of waist covering to get. A common opinion is that waist covering is not necessary for DB dinner jackets. However, the 4x1 button layout presents some unique challenges. When one sits down in a 4x1, the lapels bow out at the bottom. This effect is charming in its own way, but it also makes it not unlikely for my waistline to be exposed to guests who happen to be standing up. Therefore, I think it's better to have some form of waist covering.

It's been suggested to me that I wear a cummerbund, but I prefer much prefer a waistcoat.

So, would a V-opening, low-cut, SB waistcoat be acceptable accompaniment to a 4x1 DB dinner jacket? This waistcoat will be completely hidden by the lapel lines of the jacket when I'm standing. Thanks!

I would suggest that the conventional wisdom is correct and that a waistcoat or cummerbund are unnecessary with a double breasted dinner jacket. Unless the weather is very cold a waistcoat and double breasted DJ will be very warm and most evening occasions where you might wear it are indoors.

I am not sure why people would be looking at your lap when you are seated rather than your face so it seems an unwarranted concern to me.

Even if the buttoning point of a 4x1 DB is lower than the natural waist, a good overlap up front and a well placed interior button will prevent your waistline from being exposed when sitting in a civilized manner. I'm sure Mr. DeBoise can cut a very comfortable DB jacket that remains in place. Talk to him about this if you're still insecure.

Thank you, gentlemen, for the our well considered opinions.

I'd like to throw in another variable. What if I want to wear a stiff front shirt with a DB dinner jacket a la 1930's? Is a waistcoat required to constrain the bib from misbehaving?

bespokewrinkles wrote:

Wow, this is a lovely jacket!
What is the fabric of the trousers? I have seen similar at Molloy and Sons and at Holland and Sherry.

Regarding the waistcoat - I would make a waistcoat because it is practical, but would:
1. Not care what my guests are seing when I am sitting. You wear a shirt, so what is the problem.
2. Not care about rules like double breasted jacket with a single breasted waistcoat. I would do a double breasted waistcoat if I like.
3. take care that the waistcoat is not visible under the jacket.

bespokewrinkles wrote:Thank you, gentlemen, for the our well considered opinions.

I'd like to throw in another variable. What if I want to wear a stiff front shirt with a DB dinner jacket a la 1930's? Is a waistcoat required to constrain the bib from misbehaving?

Dear Wrinkles,

suggest you get your shirt made up first and wear it for the fittings.

Cheers, David

bespokewrinkles wrote:What if I want to wear a stiff front shirt with a DB dinner jacket a la 1930's? Is a waistcoat required to constrain the bib from misbehaving?

The stiff piqué bib is sewn (or attached, in the case of detachable/disposable bibs) to the shirt, so as long as the shirt behaves.....
I have an old formal shirt by Budd that -at the bottom of the bib- has a short tab that latches to a button on the inside of the waistband of my dinner trousers. That shirt -which I sometimes wear with a SB jacket and a waistcoat- also has slits for threading the braces through. It may not be the most convenient when it's time to go to the loo but it surely stays in place in the middle of a storm.

hectorm wrote: The stiff piqué bib is sewn (or attached, in the case of detachable/disposable bibs) to the shirt, so as long as the shirt behaves.....
I have an old formal shirt by Bud that -at the bottom of the bib- has a short tab that latches to a button on the inside of the waistband of my dinner trousers. That shirt -which I sometimes wear with a SB jacket and a waistcoat- also has slits for threading the braces through. It may not be the most convenient when it's time to go to the loo but it surely stays in place in the middle of a storm.

Thanks hectorm. I too am having two boiled front shirts made by Budd, as the second half of a 4-shirt order, though we haven't started detailed discussion on the specs yet, other than that I need to wear my dinner trousers in order for Budd to determine the size of the bib.

I am aware of the shirt tab but the braces attachment is something new to me. I've heard of other measures to prevent the bib from bulging when seated, like tabs that connect to the waistcoat and elastic band that go around the chest. But this solution sounds like a pretty secure arrangement.

I am now inclined not to bother with the waist covering.

Btw, do you think the shirt tab would be a useful feature of a soft front shirt?

HristoStefanov wrote: Wow, this is a lovely jacket!
What is the fabric of the trousers? I have seen similar at Molloy and Sons and at Holland and Sherry.

Thanks. The trousers are made of the 14 once Fox houndstooth flannel, A0053/11:

http://www.themerchantfox.co.uk/prod/91 ... nelflannel

I have a 4x1 shawl-lapel dinner jacket made by Steed - the overlap is quite low, similar to that in the jacket you are wearing. The trousers are fairly high-waisted, and are cut with a fishtail back and are always worn with braces.

When I had it made I never envisaged the need for any waist-covering, but I now find that I occasionally wear it with a cummerbund, for two reasons

(1) In situations when I might have cause to take the jacket off (more energetic black tie events) I find it just looks a lot better

(2) It helps keep the shirt-front of my stiff-fronted, detached collar shirt (by Sean O'Flynn) under control. I do not have this issue when wearing my soft, pleated-front shirt

I would not have a waistcoat made, and would see how you feel without anything in the first instance. A cummerbund is easy enough to add later if you come to the same conclusions as I

R-O-T

Thanks for sharing your experience, ROT! Does your shirt bib not have a way to secure it at the bottom and the sides, as hectrom's shirt does?

A somewhat different experience-- a few weeks ago, I had to wear black and white, including a plain shirt front to go with the white tie. The academic hood of the day had a loop to attach it to a shirt button.

In order that the shirt front not ride up when the hood sagged down our backs, the praelector offered all of the men a safety pin out of a bowl he had brought with him so we could pin shirt plackets to our waistbands. A little awkward, but unless you do a lot of those events there is not much point in making a permanent addition to a shirt.

bespokewrinkles wrote: Btw, do you think the shirt tab would be a useful feature of a soft front shirt?

I know that many military shirts have those tabs that button to the trousers. I guess that they want to avoid any possibility of their shirts riding up. So it may be an useful feature, but those same guys also wear garters to keep their socks in place .
With my DB dinner jacket I wear nowadays a simple soft white shirt and never have I felt the need of anything extra to keep it in my pants.

hectorm wrote: I know that many military shirts have those tabs that button to the trousers. I guess that they want to avoid any possibility of their shirts riding up. So it may be an useful feature, but those same guys also wear garters to keep their socks in place.

Apparently, some economically-minded soldiers will combine the two functions, by clipping their shirt tails to their socks with elastic.

Wrinkles, any particular reason you picked peak lapel over shawl? Thanks!