The London Lounge

I've recently taken an interest in VBC's cloths, particularly their flannels, but found little info online on how theirs might rate compared to other Italian mills.

What's the verdict of The Lounge -- how is VBC's stuff?

VRaivio wrote:I've recently taken an interest in VBC's cloths, particularly their flannels, but found little info online on how theirs might rate compared to other Italian mills.

What's the verdict of The Lounge -- how is VBC's stuff?

Dear VRaivio,

certainly one of the top Italian mills, if not "the top", a part from Loro Piana perhaps.

However, these mills produce what sells and what makes profit, mainly for RTW and MTM manufacturing. Such cloth has little in common with what we cherish here on the LL. With few exceptions, I have stopped buying commercial cloth, and there is not a single Italian supplier I would consider being relevant. My opinion, of course. Other people might make different choices.

Cheers, David

I've got a coat from a VBC hopsack which is lovely for a very informal garment, but which may be a bit too "stretchy" for something more formal. Beautiful colour though, somewhere between petrol blue and blueberry (if you can picture that!!).

I've had a couple of VBC worsted flannel lengths (acquired at Tip Top in Brooklyn some years back) made into MTM trousers. By modern commercial standards they have performed well enough; they were beautifully cut and I still wear them. But if I were buying for bespoke I would not consider them in the first rank. Other VBC cloths today may be better—I can't say. Mine have less substance and spring for their weight than the cloths I've had from English mills or distributors (some of which, like some Scabal cloths, may have been Italian-made but to English standards).

Alright, thank you all for the input!

I have one MTM navy blazer of VBC flannel and my experience is similar to Couch and David. Though the cloth is adequate, I prefer Minnis or Fox.

My experience is that VBC is very good cloth but a notch below the best of the English cloths, such as Lesser, Fox, and Harrison's.

I believe that the English cloths have a stronger construction of two ply yarns crossing two ply yarns. This is the so-called "2 by 2" construction. In comparison, Italian cloth is generally "2 by 1". The "2 by 2" construction as well as other factors make English cloth more expensive.

I had a Flusser MTM suit in VBC. I liked the suit, and I wore it very often. I wore it out. I definitely got my money out of it.

It should be noted that VBC has a wide color range.

I would not rule-out VBC as I would not rule-out Loro Piana. The suit may not be as durable, but you'll enjoy it.

VRaivio wrote:I've recently taken an interest in VBC's cloths, particularly their flannels,.......
What's the verdict of The Lounge -- how is VBC's stuff?

davidhuh wrote: ... these mills produce what sells and what makes profit, mainly for RTW and MTM manufacturing.

I have the chance of going through the VBC books every time I visit my tailors. Their flannels and other stuff are paper thin. Mainly on the 8 to 10.5 oz range.
Their colors and patterns are beautiful, but I would not invest bespoke tailoring that should last 25 years in a cloth that would only last 10.
For a warm weather MTM suit (particularly in an unusual dark heather bold pattern), VBC definitely yes.

hectorm wrote: * * *
I have the chance of going through the VBC books every time I visit my tailors. Their flannels and other stuff are paper thin. Mainly on the 8 to 10.5 oz range.
Their colors and patterns are beautiful, but I would not invest bespoke tailoring that should last 25 years in a cloth that would only last 10.
For a warm weather MTM suit (particularly in an unusual dark heather bold pattern), VBC definitely yes.

I agree, the VBC flannels are lighter than the English.

I also agree that if you are spending top dollar for a suit, you should go with the best cloth available. I would only use English cloth with my Savile Row tailor (on the increasingly rare occasions that I have ordered).

As for expecting one's clothes to last 25 years with regular wearings, I think that this is a bit optimistic.

Mark Seitelman wrote:
As for expecting one's clothes to last 25 years with regular wearings, I think that this is a bit optimistic.

The key measure here is the meaning of regular wearings (and also, in the case of suits, if you ordered a second pair of trousers).
I still have several Savile Row suits from the early to mid 90s in average fair condition (good for those with two pants, frail for those with only one).
They are regularly worn at a rate of 5 or 6 times a year in the colder weather rotation. Fewer times for each of my dinner suits.
All the suits are made in British cloths in the 12-14 oz range.
I also have regularly worn jackets and overcoats that are already around 20 y.o. and expect them to survive me.
Of course I wouldn´t expect that kind of longevity from those pretty VBC cloths.

The only cloth which I have used and which had worn out , quickly I
will add, is loro. Well, not really worn out but just fell apart…started ripping and stretching where it was sewn

I can't think in terms of decades of wearing the same clothes. I would get bored.
Nor could I think of wearing something 6x a year as regular usage.

If I like something , I'll wear it to death. But I think that most anything that I have had made will outlive me. And I havent used the best cloth either.

So I think that most cloths are pretty durable. I've even worn the Breanish made for the 1
A&S coat I have ever had made and that is holding very well and is one of my favorites.

The one super top premium cloth I have used is a blue lessers flannel which I had made into
a blazer. That was beautiful solid thick cloth but sadly I only wore in 2 twice before
it was stolen , ahem, more correctly said my bag went 'missing' I should say by the airline.

I think that LL member Tteplitzmd sent me a sample some years ago of a jacketing cloth from the Carlo barbera mill and that was just stunning and I should have jumped on it but who knew they were going to close.

The Italians do wonders with color and design. And if they last 10 years, I'd be pretty happy.

uppercase wrote: * * *

I can't think in terms of decades of wearing the same clothes. I would get bored. * * *

If I like something , I'll wear it to death. But I think that most anything that I have had made will outlive me. And I havent used the best cloth either.

So I think that most cloths are pretty durable. * * *

The Italians do wonders with color and design. And if they last 10 years, I'd be pretty happy.

I agree.

I asked Alan Flusser about the average longevity of a custom suit. He said about 10 years.

I have some clothes that are 10+ years old. Some are old and look it. Some are in excellent conditiion but don't quite fit anymore. Some of these were infrequently worn and are "like new" because they were never "just right" to begin with.

I do not think that a purchase of a suit is like the purchase of a house. You cannot expect a suit to last 25 years. Your body changes. (I won't get into the indignities of inevitable aging.) As for buying one suit to last one's life, do you remember the film, "The Man in the White Suit"? The invention of such a suit almost destroyed the British textile industry.

Aside from that, one can get bored of wearing the same thing decade after decade. I have a client who got bored of his bespoke wardrobe from the late Morty Sills, a legendary tailor to New York's business elite. Size and fit were not an issue. He just got tired of it, and he gave it away.

Finally, I would not limit myself to just English cloths. The Italians have an undeniable flair in color and design.

Good luck.

I can't comment about the current books, as I always loved to hunt the cloth a bit, but I think Carlo Barbera was (is) the best italian cloth. Vintage Zegna is very good as well.
Having said that, I have a DB made out of VBC worsted cloth that is very sturdy.
The best way is to trust your eyes and fingers and make all the mistakes it takes to understand what works for you.

Mark Seitelman wrote:
I asked Alan Flusser about the average longevity of a custom suit. He said about 10 years.

Dear Mark Seitelman,

if you would ask an English tailor, he would tell you that "a ten year old suit is fairly new". This is more where I live, and I never perceived it as boredom

Cheers, David

I think "average custom suit" leaves a wide margin of interpretation as it could easily mean anything, glued, MTM and Benchmade made from substandard cloth (ie designed for RTW.) I hope the members of the LL are not the kind of men to wear average suits or average anything!

My 10 year old suits are just attaining that level of patina and wear that makes them special. The reason I had them made in the first place was to get that lovely worn in feel and look. You need to buy the best cloth available for it to attain the patina of age.

Keeping fit enough to wear the 10 year old is another challenge that all men should accept and pursue with vigor. Your loved ones, and doctor will appreciate it as much as your suits who really do not want to be altered or thrown in the bin.

The vintage Barbera for H Lesser was very good cloth. I have not had good luck with Italian cloth. As far as designs go, I find the ideas are often pretty good but the execution sadly lacking. The true depth of color (and drape and wear) that cloth can have depends on a good weave and certain heft. Good ideas without heft are like good intentions.

Cheers