Does it make sense to persist after an indifferent result?

[Luca]

Having taken, somewhat belatedly, delivery of a suit (more MtM than real bespoke, I think) that falls somewhat short of what I had expected / wanted, I am left wondering if it makes sense to persist with another commission from the same house or just chalk it down to an expensive lesson learned and move on.

I have very 'average' measurements and the main reason I've resorted to personalisation is the fact that RtW suits rarely come in a fabric I much like and, much worse, right now are available either in comically baggy format OR those stupid low-rise trousers.

The PROs of trying again with the same house are as follows: a) they seem to have a considerably greater selection of cloth they'll work from than other firms at their price point; b) the problems do not seem to be errors as such but more a case of their house approach being less comfortable than I like and/or a degree of first-time miscommunication / undercommunication; c) there is very little guarantee I'll get a much better outcome elsewhere, barring the eye-watering Saville Row firms; d) time constraints.

The CONs of giving them another chance is that: a) I now have a suit in a nice material (Bateman Ogden 380 gr. / 11 oz. Grey PoW Flannel with ski-blue overcheck) but with uncomfortably tight trouser legs and stiff arm holes, one that, were I to try it off the rack, I would put back; b) even at their price point I can't afford ongoing failures; c) ultimately, another firm I worked with produced a better-fitting suit, but they are easily £ 200-300 more expensive per suit.

This is harder than I thought...

[Mark Seitelman]

I would go elsewhere.

The negative of poor fit overwhelms the positives.

[hectorm]

... with uncomfortably tight trouser legs and stiff arm holes, one that, were I to try it off the rack, I would put back...

First, you MUST persist ... in insisting that the tailor fixes what is clearly wrong with a MTM/bespoke suit that is supposed to follow your body and not the other way around. I'm not an expert but the tightness in the trousers seems pretty easy to solve provided there's material to work with. The stiff arm holes may be more problematic since they may result from having used a sawing machine in attaching the sleeves (what you get with RTW jackets).
If the tailor refuses or cannot be done for whatever reason, then you definitely walk away. If he fixes the problems, then the PROs and CONs of a future commission change drastically.
I'm sorry, Luca, that you are in this situation and I hope this is helpful.

[C.Lee]

...I now have a suit in a nice material (Bateman Ogden 380 gr. / 11 oz. Grey PoW Flannel with ski-blue overcheck) but with uncomfortably tight trouser legs and stiff arm holes, one that, were I to try it off the rack, I would put back...

Luca, reading your assessment I feel the result is less than indifferent I am afraid. The GBP 200-300 savings never materialized, and it has likely cost you more in this instance.

At any time did you try on the (or a) suit, say before putting in an order, during a fitting, or before leaving out the door with it? Put some work in to turn that indifferent result into an amazing result. You should follow up with the firm, let them know your assessment of the fit, and seek resolution if you are so inclined. Their response will determine whether you will consider them or not on future orders.

Separate of the above, it sounds like you have dealt with a firm that you are happy with. Why the wandering eye? GBP 200-300 seems like a small amount in the grand scheme of things.

Regards.

[Luca]

Thanks for all the responses, gents.

“hectorm” wrote: “…you MUST persist ... in insisting that the tailor fixes what is clearly wrong with a MTM/bespoke suit that is supposed to follow your body and not the other way around. I'm not an expert but the tightness in the trousers seems pretty easy to solve provided there's material to work with. The stiff arm holes may be more problematic since they may result from having used a sawing machine in attaching the sleeves (what you get with RTW jackets)...”

> You are right, of course. I’ve worn it once just to make sure it wasn’t me but it really isn’t that comfortable or great. The trousers would have to be done over, I think, not enough material left and the arm holes can’t really be moved significantly higher; I don’t think.

“C.Lee” wrote: “At any time did you try on the (or a) suit, say before putting in an order, during a fitting, or before leaving out the door with it? Put some work in to turn that indifferent result into an amazing result. You should follow up with the firm, let them know your assessment of the fit, and seek resolution if you are so inclined. Their response will determine whether you will consider them or not on future orders.”

> I had one fitting (with the finished garment), followed by adjustments and another try. I decided to give it a ‘real-life’ wear (a moderate one), but it’s not really fixed.

“Separate of the above, it sounds like you have dealt with a firm that you are happy with. Why the wandering eye? GBP 200-300 seems like a small amount in the grand scheme of things.”

> The difference seemed, at the time, not insubstantial to me (about £ 750 vs. 1000-1100). The main factor, however, was that the first tailor had a more limited selection of fabrics. Maybe this game just isn’t for me (hope I’m wrong). The time and money invested vs. the improvement (or, in the last case, downgrade) in fit just doesn’t seem worthwhile. I must say I’m pretty discouraged.

[simonc]

The armholes sound like they cannot be fixed and are a product of the construction method necessitated by the price. The trousers can be fixed.

In this case I would persist and either ask for the trousers to be remade or altered (if possible), and be willing to pay something toward the cost (e.g. the fabric cost) if a remake is needed. Your reasons for going bespoke are fit and fabric, you have the fabric you want and it seems like fit can be achieved.

Sadly first (and sometimes subsequent) suits need work or may not fully deliver on your intentions. I recognise your dilemma - my tailor is more like yours in being more like MTM with handwork but very flexible, but money is enough of a consideration I struggle to justify the next step up the ladder even if I understand what it brings me.

[DFR]

Time to move on - either you are being supplied with MTM or else bespoke - if you want the latter then this man cannot supply. You also have ill-fitting garments which you should oblige hi to fix if possible.

[alden]

Luca

You can't make a bespoke suit from a sow's ear. MTM, in most cases, is not as good as good RTW. My advice is to visit the shops, all the shops, and find an off the rack brand that suits you. Wear these while you save for a few years the sum required for the real thing.

Once your "bespoke" account is full of the gold required, make one suit. Wear it for a few years. If it speaks to you and your appearance is a priority to you, then, make the financial sacrifice necessary to provide yourself with a small but exquisite wardrobe.

But, whatever you do, do not waste your money on gilded illusions and facsimiles. They only deceive.

Cheers

Michael

[Luca]

I appreciate the advice, Michael, everyone.

MTM, in most cases, is not as good as good RTW.

I hear you. I have RTW jackets from Ede and Ravenscroft, Cordings and Walker Slater that fit me considerably better. But why is that? It seems counterintuitive that some moderate customisation and a lot more money should result in a worse product.
I guess that even after 20 years in London I’ve still not accepted how little talent, dedication and quality GBP 800 buys you in this burg.

[uppercase]

Suits of all sorts, bespoke, MTM, RTW, are becoming so expensive these days as to be prohibitive.

It makes sense to me to wear what you already have and build on what is in your closet right now.

Buying more and more can become a compulsion rather than a path to looking and feeling good about yourself and your appearance.

Alden is right that RTW is not so bad. And in my experience, MTM is often better than bespoke. But bespoke at its best is better than the rest.

But how much money do you want to drop on a tailor before you realize that you're never going to be happy with him? In my view, the first suit tells the story of what to expect down the road. If the first suit is disappointing, it's not going to get better.

Most of the tailors I have tried in my bespoke career, I would not return to. One suit was enough to tell me to look elsewhere. Bespoke brand names mean little these days. What matters is what looks good on you and makes you feel happy.

And certainly, bespoke is not an entree to style. If you don't know how to dress, what looks good on you...bespoke clothing will not help you. Better save your money. Style is what you are looking for, not the minutiae of button holes, padding, stitching and shoulders. Understand what looks good on you and stick with it.

And don't buy too much. You don't need it. Look in your closet. Focus on your style, not your clothes.

[hectorm]

...after 20 years in London I’ve still not accepted how little talent, dedication and quality GBP 800 buys you in this burg.

Dear Luca,
Let´s say for the sake of it that -depending on the degree of handwork put into it- a MTM/bespoke jacket takes something in between 25 and 55 hours of skilled manual labor (measuring, cutting, putting it together, fitting, finishing, etc.).
What kind of custom-made coat were you expecting to get for the final prize (cost plus overhead plus profit) of 800 pounds in the city of London?
Sometimes you don´t get true talent, nor dedication or quality even when you pay 2 thousand pounds or more.

[alden]

Suits of all sorts, bespoke, MTM, RTW, are becoming so expensive these days as to be prohibitive.

It makes sense to me to wear what you already have and build on what is in your closet right now.

Buying more and more can become a compulsion rather than a path to looking and feeling good about yourself and your appearance.

Alden is right that RTW is not so bad. And in my experience, MTM is often better than bespoke. But bespoke at its best is better than the rest.

But how much money do you want to drop on a tailor before you realize that you're never going to be happy with him? In my view, the first suit tells the story of what to expect down the road. If the first suit is disappointing, it's not going to get better.

Most of the tailors I have tried in my bespoke career, I would not return to. One suit was enough to tell me to look elsewhere. Bespoke brand names mean little these days. What matters is what looks good on you and makes you feel happy.

And certainly, bespoke is not an entree to style. If you don't know how to dress, what looks good on you...bespoke clothing will not help you. Better save your money. Style is what you are looking for, not the minutiae of button holes, padding, stitching and shoulders. Understand what looks good on you and stick with it.

And don't buy too much. You don't need it. Look in your closet. Focus on your style, not your clothes.

For you guys just starting out.....This is pure gold. Print it out and read it every night for a month.

Thanks Uppercase!

Cheers

[alden]

Let´s say for the sake of it that -depending on the degree of handwork put into it- a MTM/bespoke jacket takes something in between 25 and 55 hours of skilled manual labor (measuring, cutting, putting it together, fitting, finishing, etc.).

Hectorm

Very true. I have measured the time for a handmade bespoke coat at upwards of 70 hrs of very skilled work. But I think you are in the ballpark with 60. A mechanic or plumber with a wrench in his hands gets 35-40 an hour. Should a tailor earn less?

I remember one day I watched Frank Shattuck work on getting a set of patch pockets right for a coat he was making for a 6'7" Goliath of a man. He spent many agonizing hours getting it just right. It is a lot of work to get things right.

Cheers

[C.Lee]

If appearance is your priority then trust your eye and body. This can not be overstated. Take the time to learn what looks good and feels good on you. There are no shortcuts, only time and effort invested. Only when you have mastered this can you go out and find the person or persons to provide you what it is you are looking for. You have your eye off the ball if you are basing decisions off names, price tags, or marketing promises.

There will be false starts, missteps, and lost money along the way, but so long as you are learning, the only game around will be the one in your head.

Regards.

[lxlloyd]

I appreciate the advice, Michael, everyone.

MTM, in most cases, is not as good as good RTW.

I hear you. I have RTW jackets from Ede and Ravenscroft, Cordings and Walker Slater that fit me considerably better. But why is that? It seems counterintuitive that some moderate customisation and a lot more money should result in a worse product.
I guess that even after 20 years in London I’ve still not accepted how little talent, dedication and quality GBP 800 buys you in this burg.

I'm working for a Belgian designer (Bruno Pieters), who has decided to be completely transparent in his price breakdowns, so i can actually do this without fear of braking a nondisclosure agreement, (since this is listed on the website anyway).

This is a pretty accurate comparison since we are a luxury european RTW brand with european manufacturing; the wool in this case is from a french mill; all of the fabrics ethically and sustainably sourced (and largely european in manufacture) and the actual breakdown (spinner, weaver, origin of raw material, manufacturer, individual costs of everything from the buttons to fusings) is all on the website, but I dont want to spam the forum .(You can pm me for the link if you wish to verify that I didn't pull this out of the air). Needless to say we share suppliers with many London tailors- so the raw materials would come to a similar price, (or actually be more expensive because the wool in this case is recycled).

For a Navy wool caban coat (Not a suit, unfortunately)

Our Fabric costs: 55,07 eur

Pattern development: 7,62 Euro (Bear in mind my predecessor would have done the bulk of the work on this pattern, so an intern, so no salary to pay. I hear that cutters on the row with all their decades of experience actually merit a salary. and even off row cutters. So this cost would increase)

Garment manufacturing (european, Machine with a lot of handwork): 99,51 Euro

Development (This covers the cost of the development of the samples, such as pattern making and digitising) : 13,42 Euro

Transportation: 8 Euro

Branding: 10 Euro

TOTAL COST: 193,62 EURO

WHOLESALE MARK UP: X 2,0
= 387,24 EURO
The wholesale mark up covers a part of the studio costs such as staff, research, design, utility costs, transportation and office supplies.

RETAIL MARK UP: X 2,0
The retail mark up covers a part of the shop costs such as purchasing of new collections, webshop operational costs, rent, insurance, communications, intellectual property rights, maintenance costs, legal and accounting costs and marketing.

RETAIL PRICE (excl. VAT): 774,48 EURO
This price is applicable to non-EU customers. Import duty taxes apply.

RETAIL PRICE (incl. VAT): 937,12 EURO
This price is applicable to EU customers only. VAT is included in this price.

We actually give 20 percent of our profit to charity. (And actually this coat is on sale for 490 eurosish at the moment (old stock). But London is much more expensive to maintain a studio in than Antwerp and the cost of living is much greater, so I believe that that 20percent would be eaten by living costs - considering my rent was three and a half times greater in London and my living costs were at least doubled. The transportation costs also would probably be greater.

But that's where your money is going.

Incedentally, when we alter patterns for a client (which we occasionally do) we will have to create a new pattern from scratch because in studio we can't modify the pattern that's needed for the archive (And you could only grade that up two sizes before the point at which you have to make a new pattern, unless the rest of that clients proportions were perfectly sample size). So that could take anything up to a working day and a half to alter depending on how drastic the changes are. So that is basically MTM, and the prices would still be fairly equivalent to London. Unfortunately.