Suit with waist seam; pockets

[YoungLawyer]

Last week, I spotted a chap getting onto the tube near Bank wearing a suit with a waist-seam. I only saw it for a second, but it was noticably better and closer fitting than all the other suits around it, and it made a very strong impression. It was a mid-grey from a distance, probably houndstooth. The coat's front fastend quite high, I think it was three buttons, but it might just have been four. The lapels were stepped, but quite wide. The waistcoat fastened quite high, and had a lapel. The back of the coat was like a body coat but shorter, with two small buttons in the same fabric. There might have been grey ribbon down the vent. Overall, it was extremely smart, and looking to be thicker fabric, was being worn without an overcoat - perfect for London at this time of year. It looked slightly neo-Edwardian, and given that the chap in question looked quite (ahem)... successful, it might have been made a good while ago. Although it sounds quite elaborate, it looked fairly conservative from the front, just with rather more shape than one would expect, and didn't look out of place at all in a business setting.

Has anyone seen a pattern for a suit cut like this? I've seen a few fashion plates from the 1880s-1910s, which have this, but those would seem rather odd today, with coats that are much longer than a modern suit coat (without being a frock-coat). If anyone does have such a pattern, I'd be very interested to see a copy. The other difficulty was the pockets. I'd have sworn that they were sloping, but I couldn't figure out how afterwards they would be placed so as not to interfere with a waist seam. The Victorian/Edwardian fashion plates that I've seen had straight and very low-placed pockets, which make them look, to my eye, costume. This example had pockets at a more conventional height for a modern suit. Does that indicate that there was a pattern for a conventional/modern suit for the front part of the coat, somehow blended into a body coat at the back, or is it more likely that the pattern was taken from something like a hunt coat?

[Testudo_Aubreii]

Wow, that's an interesting and unusual observation. So the gent was old? Did you get a look at the coat's fronts? Were the quarters sharply cut away, as with a contemporary morning coat? Or did they have less cut-away, like an ordinary lounge coat? If the former, then it would be something that's called variously "a short morning coat" or "a University Coat." If the latter, it's sometimes called "a New York Walking Coat."

Both are species of the genus Sator helpfully labeled "short-skirted waisted coats." Check out the April 1903 and 1869 illustrations: both are roughly the length of contemporary (1930s-1950s, anyway) lounge coats:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6546

[Testudo_Aubreii]

P. S. There's a pattern for an (I think cut-away) waisted lounge-length coat in the Sator thread I linked.

[YoungLawyer]

That's the interesting thing: I'd seen that thread before (a long time ago), and had filed those illustrations, mentally, under 'historic' patterns. The coat I saw in town didn't seem noticably 'costume'. It was on the long side for a suit coat, but still within a normal range of suit coats; I'd say at the joint in the thumb. The quarters were, again, slightly more open than on an average modern rtw suit, but not enough to make it seem different from a sack suit from the front. It was only after I'd walked past, and thought to myself 'that suit fits rather well', that I turned round and noticed that the back was cut like a body-coat.

The April 1903 image would be most like it, but the coat shorter, with rounded quarters like a suit coat, a lower top button, about to the mid-points between the two buttons - three button fastening (I think), and no ticket pocket. The waistcoat followed the line, roughly of the coat in the 1903 illustration - I saw 1 button of waistcoat, I think.
The chap seemed in his 60s, and very sprightly!

I have to say, that it was a very smart suit indeed, and if I could find a sensible pattern, I'd think about having one made... I notice from that other thread, that not all of those coats had buttons at the back, which would perhaps make it slightly less conspicuous. I also noted that the buttons at the back were quite close together (in a way that so many modern body-coats have buttons widely spaced) - it made it a little more subtle, as the vent wasn't so off-centre.

[Testudo_Aubreii]

Interesting. I've been thinking along the same lines myself. A body coat just longer than lounge length, so that it hits definitely below the seat in back, with moderately cut away fronts, like a bolder version of Neapolitan open quarters. Side bodies and panelling in back. Rather like the short morning coat Favourbrook sells or just used to sell RTW. Rather like Sir W. Hall Walker's below, though with dark horn buttons and perhaps not quite as sharply cut away.

In navy, I think it'd be great for weddings and evening wear. A bit unusual, but not jarring. A stealth body coat, as it were. Be interesting to see if you could sneak it into the Royal Enclosure at Ascot. Strictly speaking, it is a short version of the Newmarket coat that we today call "a morning coat."

The problem, of course, is that you'd need a tailor with experience in making body coats, and would probably want to bespeak a couple of lounges from him/her before commissioning the body coat. I've been thinking of going to Steed just for that purpose.

Anyway, if you do it, please keep us updated.

[Testudo_Aubreii]

P. S. You might find this interesting. A back view of a New York Walking Coat (2nd from left), ca. 1866. Note that it appears not to have a waist seam, though it does have side bodies.

The short ("D'Orsay") morning coat (far left) and the "French Sack-coat" (4th from left) are also interesting.

From (with descriptions): http://www.catskillarchive.com/rrextra/mensfash.Html

[YoungLawyer]

Thank you very much, those are very interesting illustrations. I think the coat that I saw was so much more like a modern sack-suit than these, that it must have been a 1950s Neo-Edwardian pattern, or something similar. I wonder if anyone has any illustrations of that period that might be close to the mark. It's not that I dislike the Victorian plates, it's just that an attempt to copy those would introduce a morning coat by stealth, or rather, quite openly. The example I saw was marked simply by being so like a lounge suit. In fact, this is part of the problem, if you look at the fashion plates, it's impossible to cut them short enough, and also have hip-pockets. The pattern I'm looking for managed to have pockets at a normal height for a lounge suit at the front, but a waist seam at the back.

[hectorm]

it must have been a 1950s Neo-Edwardian pattern, or something similar. I wonder if anyone has any illustrations of that period that might be close to the mark.

I have not seen anything from the 50s.
This is a 4B Neo Edwardian lounge suit from the 60s (credited to Tommy Nutter). Is this similar to what you have in mind?

[YoungLawyer]

Well, the coat might not have been quite so long, but that's the right length of lapel, though they were wider. I should have lingered to get a better idea of its construction. Perhaps it was just that the waist seam was slightly higher than normal, which allowed the pockets to be angled, and the rest was style. I suppose I've been overcomplicating it - the pattern could have been adapted from a hunt coat.