The London Lounge

Pierre Spies wrote:

hectorm wrote: Your question also leads me to wonder about what happened with French men´s elegance and style in the last 50 years, but explaining this decline is a topic for another thread.

alden wrote:
Well yes, it is politically incorrect to dress the classics.
French fashion is dominated by the Bobos...(Bohemian and Bourgeois) who spend as much as any Savile Row gent on clothes but with the intent to look as dumpy as possible.
But there is a bit of revolution in the air as some young men are wearing suits again and polishing their shoes.

I´m afraid that Pierre´s explanation, although graphic and well oriented, is unsatisfactory.
It doesn´t explain why the disgrace happened to French men and not to French women (who continue to be extremely elegant and stylish). And it would also fail to explain why this decline happened in France and not in Italy, where despite the same social upheavals, governments of the left, etc. men are still at the top of the sartorial game.

Hectorm,

Unfortunately I was not throwing rocks at the CRS in may 68 as I'm only 28, therefore I may not be the most appropriate person to comment on the plunge of esthetics in male style for the past 40 years.

What I can tell you is that:

- May 68 has had as much cultural consequences as economical ones. Maybe even more consequences. My Grandfathers' generation, all they represented and what they stood for has been considered as something forgettable at best, of pure evil at most. This includes political heritage, French history as a whole, manners, religion, style, etc.

- My generation is still obviously looking for figures to relate to and to belong to one "tribe" socially. As we can not turn to images of the time before 68 as they are politically incorrect and as we have not received the proper education on style from our fathers, we turn to the one easy quick step to belonging to any tribe: the "brand".

That's why my generation is filled with guys paying 500€ for a pair of plastic sneakers. Not because they are good looking, but because (they are lead to think) it's their only way to belong to a social group that can replace belonging to a larger French culture or even to a country (don't get me started on this).

My own 2 francs I should say.

Then, why French girls are still more elegant (which, IMO, remains to be seen...), maybe that would be because they have been lucky enough to still get the education on style and manners from the past generations...

That's why my generation is filled with guys paying 500€ for a pair of plastic sneakers. Not because they are good looking, but because (they are lead to think) it's their only way to belong to a social group that can replace belonging to a larger French culture or even to a country (don't get me started on this)

My own 2 francs I should say.

Pierre Spies.

One could of course argue that there are also guys who are paying 500€ for a pair of C&J's for the very same reason: to look good, according to the rules of the social group they belong to.
Wearing sneakers and jeans (or Lobbs and hand-made trousers) does not, in my opinion, have anything to do with belonging to France or French culture. Culture, by the way, is not rigid - if it stagnates it goes smelly.
Don't worry Pierre, since the sixties men dress abominably everywhere!

As to the question if French women continue to be "extremely elegant and stylish" I am sad to report that in my younger days when strolling down the streets of Paris one saw a greater number of elegantly dressed ladies than today.

Taller

There are a couple of questions I feel unable to answer. First what happened in 68 concerning suits and elegance in general. Before that date everybody, including revolutionaries, wore jacket and tie. Have a look at the first sit ins in Berkeley (a.D 1961). Suits, white shirts and ties. All this changed practically overnight. Second. France vs. Italy. Italians play in the champs league, lefties or not. French politicians and big shots are closer to the Spaniards, that is, to disaster. There is something typically parisian that has not changed in teen culture though. To wear the RTW coat on top of a thin sweater...and one size smaller than the good fit. Another fascinating topic is brand. Why before you had to go bespoke and now you have to go brand. In a way the SR´s answer to Armani is correct. It used to be bespoke by the customer now it is bespoke by Armani. No need to charge SR with dressing the children of the English lords. Armani dresses also the kids of the lords. Only difference is Armani´s lords are not English but global.

castiglione wrote: There is something typically parisian that has not changed in teen culture though. To wear the RTW coat on top of a thin sweater...and one size smaller than the good fit.

Curiously enough: isn´t this what the Parisian call (or used to call): "Le look Anglais"?

Dear Hector, I cannot confirm or deny your question. For me to wear a coat one size smaller is "the parisian look" all the way round. Nobody, I repeat, nobody in any city in the world practices this kind of elegance. BUT milanese love to wear blue suits and antique chesnut shoes, or even lighter shades, and Spaniards love to walk in green loden coats around fall and winter as if they were deer hunters in Austria. When in Rome...

I would also argue that there is a certain process of romanticising the image of the scruffy Artist/intellectual/philosopher that exists. Although evident in many places, in Paris, or at least, the Paris with which I interact, many people "dress the part" as it were (something to do with an inherent tendency to elevate and glorify these roles/positions in French, or at least Parisian, society?) in some cases they will pay alot to dress the part, but then there have frequently been people throughout history who will pay a small fortune to look like their clothes have been dragged through a hedge backwards or stolen off a gypsy. It's something frequently found in the Romantic aesthetic.

This is basically a reiteration of previous observations of the dominance of the BoBo asthetic.

I would think that also it stems from the cultural effects of '68.

The other tendency, if rejecting the Bobo aethetic, is what Pierre observes with the conspicuous consumption of global brands. This happens, as is often the case, with those at the lower end of the social scale (a common theme in many western cultures) but also (with different brands and signifiers and codes) with those that reject the Bobo aesthetic because they are in the other direction. (I.e. People who are less endeared to the romantic ideal of the artist/intellectual. in my experience, they tend to be my friends who are lawyers/financiers/in business).

As for French girls being particularly more elegant.... i would be of the inclination to agree with Pierre (remains to be seen. The best dressed people i've met here are consistently Scandinavian)
I think it's more a question of what's available in shops. It's not that my friends here have any more idea of what they're doing, it's just that the dominant aesthetic here tends to be dark flattering colours and noone bothers wearing heels because of cobbles (so they don't end up mincing around) and for some reason (I have yet to quite work out) Legs are more scandalous than breasts in France, which means you have more tights (but more see-through shirts). I think it's somewhat amusing the cultural difference there.

The other thing being that, Parisian girls at least, err on the side of petite. Which is flattering for clothes. It also means that, while, for example, the same dress might be available in England and France in a Zara, for example, If many of my french friends bought it, being slim and petite) it would seem practically demure, but if I were to wear the same exact dress (being still slim but tall) it would seem indecently short, when realistically it's an optical illusion it's just that my legs are longer. So I would say it's a combination of Darker colours being popular (flattering) the weather in Paris (tights and dark trousers prevalent) and my French girlfriends being masters of natural makeup (sometimes they have so much on that it terrifies me that you can't tell)

as for the coat one size to small.... I can only venture the theory that it's prevalent frequently because coats are expensive and students will wear them long past the time they've grown out of them, and then because it's the prevalent aesthetic, it becomes a 'thing'. And then students actively go looking for their old/vintage coats. And we have a youth-centric culture.

The thin sweater is easily explained. Crowded bars. Thick sweater is a recipe for discomfort.

Thank you Alexandra.
You´ve enlightened us in some aspects we (at least I) have not thought before.
It´s great to have a woman´s perspective here in the LL where the predominant point of view is male.

hectorm wrote: It´s great to have a woman´s perspective here in the LL where the predominant point of view is male.

I'll second that.

Regards
Russell