The London Lounge

There seems to be a constant concern with bespoke tailoring problems.
Would it be possible to create a computer program that will take your body measurements & create a body "image" with clothing you want, such as suite style, shoulders, pockets,trousers etc. you get the drift.
It should be "3D" so that it could be rotated.

Could this be a Savile Row Association project?
I would buy a copy.

For the interested, it is snowing in Western Canada.

Canuck, This is most certainly where we are heading.
Within five years I would say.

In Cernobbio, Italy there is a bespoke tailor (completely hand made) who entered the computer age already. He created a complete online system and even does fitting sessions online with his customers. You can read more about that on their website: http://www.sartoriaorefice.com/italian/net_tailor.php

I'm in touch with this tailor for a book project about tailoring and classic clothing I'm working on. Next year I hope to pay them a visit and then learn more about this system and how it will develop.

All the best

I rather think computer drafting of patterns is already with us. WW Chan?

Yes , I saw the video. That is hi-tech MTM. It is the way of the future. If the fitter knows what to feed the computer it will work. I use this to make MTM for friends and family. Like I said.. the person filling out the measure form must understand measure and how the factory computer will interpret . This is is the new world.

I would think it would be too expensive to justify for individual tailors but probably something ideal for larger made-to-measure programs. It may be a really effective way to get around the frequency of human error in the department store made-to-measure process, typically from a miss measurement by the sales person or a miss communication between him/her and the factory, which is often in another country. (I once tried Armani M2M pants through Bloomingdales and they came back way too small, because the italian factory assumed centimeters when the sales person meant inches. I've never tried M2M since). It could help avoid stuff like that.

For an individual tailor, I would think that this kind of error doesn't happen often enough to justify the technology and the technology wouldn't provide him enough benefit in catching disproportions, or providing really that much scale to his business. But maybe I'm wrong.

I could see the technology narrowing the gap between made to measure and bespoke though. If the technology is good, it could enable larger M2M firms, to get around the fact that they don't have qualified tailors at the retail level, and give their very qualified group of sewers back at the factory better information to work with?

There is a technology company in North Carolina named TC2 that makes a CAD body scanner. they say it takes 400 unique measurements. They have been marketing it to the fashion industry for some time, and in 2005 a clothier named Benchmark Clothiers licensed six of them to deploy to department stores for measurements. I'm not sure how it did.

http://tc2.com/index_3dbodyscan.html

To the extent that there are frequent and serious errors in the work of Savile Row though, I'm all for it embracing such technology if it helps. In my mind, it wouldn't reduce the image I have of the Row or of the suits it makes for me. It would be like a doctor using an MRI. Better the Row embrace it now and improve its product than not and witness M2M close the gap even more.

To your point, which I missed in my first reply, maybe SR could deploy one for all of its members. I just wonder if it would really make a difference.

dempsy444 wrote:To the extent that there are frequent and serious errors in the work of Savile Row though, I'm all for it embracing such technology if it helps. In my mind, it wouldn't reduce the image I have of the Row or of the suits it makes for me. It would be like a doctor using an MRI. Better the Row embrace it now and improve its product than not and witness M2M close the gap even more.

To your point, which I missed in my first reply, maybe SR could deploy one for all of its members. I just wonder if it would really make a difference.

I read the concerns of members not receiving what they envisioned from a bespoke tailer.
What I am thinking, is a program that would show the look of a different style, drape, pocket or shoulder etc., the details.
The customer who may ask for a structured suite with roped collars & patch pockets, when seen in 3D to his dimensions may think twice.

However, the computer will never replace good workmanship.

Canuck wrote:

dempsy444 wrote:To the extent that there are frequent and serious errors in the work of Savile Row though, I'm all for it embracing such technology if it helps. In my mind, it wouldn't reduce the image I have of the Row or of the suits it makes for me. It would be like a doctor using an MRI. Better the Row embrace it now and improve its product than not and witness M2M close the gap even more.

To your point, which I missed in my first reply, maybe SR could deploy one for all of its members. I just wonder if it would really make a difference.

I read the concerns of members not receiving what they envisioned from a bespoke tailer.
What I am thinking, is a program that would show the look of a different style, drape, pocket or shoulder etc., the details.
The customer who may ask for a structured suite with roped collars & patch pockets, when seen in 3D to his dimensions may think twice.

However, the computer will never replace good workmanship.

Should read shoulders.

I can distinctly recall a body scanner being featured on the BBC's Dragons Den, with a MTM operator asking for cash to fund his business plan. I only had half an eye on the TV but recall the idea being dismissed with one of the Dragons advising that when he visited his SR tailor it was the personal interaction that he was paying for.

In fact web 'suit-builders' have been around on the MTM market for around 4 to 5 years. My own tailors - C&tD run their perfectly acceptable for the money factory suits on this model, and for the the full bells and whistles experience check out http://www.asuitthatfits.com

It's an interesting idea and may have real merit. To many though, it may be like that moment you order an expensive bottle of wine at a nice restaurant and the Sommelier returns only to twist off the top. Some of the best wine makers in the world make a strong case for using twist-off for the sake of consistent quality, but it sure deminishes the wine experience for me.

I suspect just as many people are attracted to the artisan purity of bespoke- especially on Savile Row- as are people to the idea of a perfect suit. Putting a computer monitor in the mix may undermine that pure artisan experience, and serve to lessen the distinction from mass produced clothing, which the customer may have been reacting against to begin with.

It also may be perceived as a short cut. People want to think their tailors are committed artisans who will fuss over the making of their suit as if they were a King (There is reason SR makes a big deal out all those royal warrants). I also think many people like to imagine themselves physically transformed by the suit they are commisioning, and showing the customer up front that the extra 50 lbs they are carrying will still bulge out may not be good for business. In a way, maybe much of bespoke's allure is not knowing knowing exactly how you will look in the new suit?

Having said all this, I have no doubt that the new generation of kids who grew up on IM and facebook will think entirely differently about the proper role of technology in anything.

Jack Dempsey444, The problem is, there are no craftsmen. There has been no apprentice system for 70yrs. Lenny Logsdail is the only true hand tailor - that I know of - in NYC under 83yrs. MTM is the way. I agree with what you say about the cheezy twist off wine bottle. Who are the kidding, right? { I like Carlo Rossi myself } But it is the way. To me twist off wine bottles is like super180s cloth. Most cloth today is designed to go through a factory.Not worked tough with a needle and iron. Hence the loss of the hard dry cloths . There is no need to make cloth to be worked with the needle and to wear for 20yrs. Its a different world. And your point about the facebook kids.. They will have no Idea about cloth or hand work. A quote from Vickie Vasolopolis documentary,
" I am a tailor from the old world.
My craft is dying.
Each tailor that goes is an end.
Let it be.The old world is crumbling.
There is no room in the new world
for the honored work of an old humanity"

old henry wrote:Jack Dempsey444, The problem is, there are no craftsmen. There has been no apprentice system for 70yrs. Lenny Logsdail is the only true hand tailor - that I know of - in NYC under 83yrs. MTM is the way. I agree with what you say about the cheezy twist off wine bottle. Who are the kidding, right? { I like Carlo Rossi myself } But it is the way. To me twist off wine bottles is like super180s cloth. Most cloth today is designed to go through a factory.Not worked tough with a needle and iron. Hence the loss of the hard dry cloths . There is no need to make cloth to be worked with the needle and to wear for 20yrs. Its a different world. And your point about the facebook kids.. They will have no Idea about cloth or hand work. A quote from Vickie Vasolopolis documentary,
" I am a tailor from the old world.
My craft is dying.
Each tailor that goes is an end.
Let it be.The old world is crumbling.
There is no room in the new world
for the honored work of an old humanity"

Well, you have thoroughly depressed me;) Enough to drink a 4 liter Rossi.

Frank, you have expressed beautifully what those of a certain age feel. The "new world" is a world of virtual relationship. The essence, I believe, of bespoke tailoring is actual relationship. "My" tailor is more than just a producer of clothes. We together make garments just for us (a favorite suit, well-worn jacket), for me to wear, for him to craft, and in which both of us take pride and satisfaction. When someone complements me on my suit, I always say that it was made by Peter, my tailor. There is something satisfying about living in a world where we have tailors and clients, doctors and patients, lawyers and clients. Not just in name only, but in truth.

I am afraid this world is fading away, in tailoring and many more ways.

And, Martin, you have comlpimented beautifully what I have said. I lament also the loss of the old style customer of which you are one. Along with the loss of the true tailor and good English Beef Stew cloth { i mention no names } so goes the old customer. The respect they would have for the humble immigrant tailor was beautiful. Tommy Higgins was the most elegant rugged First World War veteran.Everyone called him Tommy. A great friend of both of my grandfathers. He started me tailoring. I remember the respect he had for the two little tailors where I apprenticed for ten years.. His father was a farmer. He was a bank president. He adored the Cesta Bros.. He would stop by their dim little sun lit shop every day with coffee from The Downey Flake Bakery below.. He loved Mrs Cestas eggplant. His suit { always blue } was secondary.He always had one in the works. The admiration he had for the hand worker. He would sit and watch them make his suit. He never stood infront of the mirror for a fitting. "Surprize me" he would say. Perhaps he longed to work his life with his hand like his father.I have found many customers today to be not so respectful. They do not see the comissioning of a suit to be a handshke between two gentlemen as Martin does. They say," Here is what I must have and I will check your work at the fitting".. I now have four customers keeping me quite buisy.. I would never dream of asking for a deposit and they would never dream of making me ask for a balance. They would never run home to post photos. They know the proper delicate manner in which to address a flaw as Mr. Alden mentioned in another post. This is why I lament the loss of my favorite cloths. I want them to have The Top o The Line. My customers wear suits to look good for their business. They see suits as a uniform. They must look good. They put on their suit in the morming and forget about it. They know English cloth and they know subtle. Some I have taught. All have taught me..... I really like what you have said Martin. Peter is a lucky tailor to have you. FShattuck