The London Lounge

Oscar Wilde has one of his more earnest characters remark that “a well tied tie is the first serious step in life.” That may well be, but the first serious step in bespoke tailoring is a well cut shirt.

How often do I see men with no cuff showing or sheets of it in view casting accusatory glances at their innocent tailors when the cut of the shirt is at fault and neither the coat nor its maker? And what is to be said about men who wear off the rack shirts that do not fit and wonder why their fine bespoke jacket is wrinkled and untidy? Or into what infernal bolgia will be cast the man who wants a tailor to cut a coat to fit all of his shirts when all of his shirts are all over the globe in terms of measures, fit and sleeve length?

Coats are crafted to fit shirts whose measures must be constant.

So, the first step in bespoke is to get a serious shirt, one that fits, made by the best craftsmen you can’t afford before you step foot inside a tailor’s shop. When you have acquired short term funding from the IMF and had a proper shirt made, have it duplicated in Bangladesh and never (ever) vary from its measures. Then and only then can you venture to the tailors and ask him to make a coat whose sleeves will be calibrated to the shirt’s measures (now a mathematical constant) so the right amount of shirt cuff is revealed.

This mad science sounds pretty simple, right? Falsch meine kleine kartofellpuffe! (You knew that was coming.) The proliferation of bespoke (sic) MTM shirts has muddied the waters of pure Cartesian shirt logic for a few reasons, ones that can drive tailors batty.

MTM shirt makers generally do not pay attention to nor make accommodations for the difference in the length of your arms caused by such things as physical deformation, tilted shoulders, uneven shoulders, awkward stance, poor posture and juvenile knuckle dragging syndrome. So the resulting bespoke (sic) shirt that does not fit will have to be compensated for by your coat and that coat will only fit that offending shirt and no others including ones that might be properly cut.

To make matters worse most MTMers do not even notice the Audemar Piggy that weighs in at half a ton on your wrist. The wrist measures must be taken with the Piggy on the wrist and enough fabric provided on the shirt cuff to allow it to be buttoned firmly at the proper and never changing position your tailor will love you for.

And speaking of buttoning cuffs, most MTM shirts do not button at all. They are so loose at the wrist that the cuff travels between Memphis and Cairo on your arm, forearm and wrist on its own whim and entirely of its own mercurial volition leaving you and your tailor to grasp dueling pistols at dawn. The cuff of the shirt needs to be firmly fastened, not blood clottingly tight, but tight enough for the cuff to stay in place where we want it to rest not where it decides to after a few kilometers of anatomical tourism.

Do imagine the pleasure your tailor must feel, after painstakingly crafting a beautiful coat with a wonderfully precise small oval armhole, when you try to cram a shirt with an armhole big enough for a medium sized circus elephant into it? One of the first lessons in bespoke is to recall that a tailor possesses marvelous cutting talent, scissors that are as large as they are razor sharp and your back is turned to him for most of your visit! I hope the wisdom contained in this merry bit of philosophy sinks in.

If you are serious about bespoke and are smart enough to sidestep besmoke, equip yourself with a well cut shirt, no matter the cost. You will make your shirtmaker, your tailor and your life insurance company very happy.

Once you have your shirt made, and a good coat to match you will need to focus your attention on the second most serious step in bespoke: how to knot the well knotted tie. And that will be the subject of some upcoming bombast.

Cheers

Michael Alden

Ha! Roma locuta, causa finita.

Well said. I was unaware of your German skills Michael
By going to a decent shirtmaker (and sticking to this one), you also become a fighter in the ongoing 150-year war between Jermyn Street and the Row which is considerable fun.

David

I have both and funnily enough the sleeves on my mtm shirts are ca.4cm longer than on my bespoke shirts.
Go figure...

So, the first step in bespoke is to get a serious shirt, one that fits, made by the best craftsmen you can’t afford before you step foot inside a tailor’s shop.

Alden gets it right again. Bravo.

This is where to begin in bespoke: get a perfect bespoke shirt made first before moving on to suits. So, forget bespoke suits, coats, etc. until you can get a bespoke shirt just right.

The process for bespoke shirt and bespoke suits is the same. Choose tailor, choose cloth, choose details, get fitted, adjust, re-adjust and adjust again. The difference however is $5,000. Bespoke shirts are where to begin. The cost of entry is reasonable.

Honestly, first get a perfect bespoke shirt made before moving on to bespoke suits. You'll learn the process, make all of the mistakes, discover your style, and learn whether bespoke is for you or not.

Honest advice from Alden. Right on.

Begin with bespoke shirts.

i have run into trouble even with A good bespoke shirt maker--someone who makes good quality shirts -right in front of me--
they still sometimes make errors e.g.sleeve 3/4" too long on one shirt; armhole an inch lower on another one

and i suppose consistency is what sets apart the best.

A number of years ago i went with a friend to a "custom" shirt maker who made them in hong kong. we got 10 shirts between us 2 of mine were off on the fit and i believe three of his 5 were off

pretty awful ratio

but although i use a true bespoke maker, id say one out of 5 shirts has a variance from the norm

The bespoke shirt do seem to be the usual first bespoke step. I started with bespoke shirts myself. However, preferences changes. You learn. You find that a different collar flatters your face better. You realize that there is a huge difference between style and fit. What initially was the perfect shirt, may later become just a tolerable shirt. A friend of mine has started with bespoke suits. They are well-cut. Maybe he will feel differently about them, when he starts buying bespoke shirts. I hope not

Merc wrote: but although i use a true bespoke maker, id say one out of 5 shirts has a variance from the norm

I'd say that is par for bespoke.

Each shirt, suit, coat is going to be a bit different from the previous one. Hopefully it will be an improvement, though that is not at all certain. This is infact a good indicator of whether to continue and be patient with a tailor: if the fit improves with each new bespoke project.

In anycase, bespoke items will always have variations in fit...the cloth is cut and sewn by hand, not machine. Who knows...maybe your tailor drank too much the night before he cut your cloth. Artists are tempermental and known to regularly have more than a few drams to soothe their nerves.

I asked my tailor once, who does the measures, cutting, and fittings but has another man who has been doing the sewing for him for 30 years, why assuming my weight hadn't changed a particular jacket felt a little tighter in a spot than a previous one or a shoulder needed more tweaking than usual, he laughed and drew a chalk line on some cloth. He said some days maybe the needle goes right in the middle of this line, others maybe on the outside or inside of the line, maybe because he is in a hurry or argued with his wife the night before, or something, or just thought it felt right; and he said even just going on the inside or outside of such a line can mean differences of a quarter inch or more overall, depending. He said, after all, it is made by hand.

So far my mental list of true bespoke shirtmakers has one name on it: Charvet. Not that I've put Charvet to the test, for reasons of geography and economy. Who else should be on the list?

I have had a lot of shirts made, by a lot of different shirtmakers (mostly in London) and so far I'm yet to find anyone that I can recommend. In fairness I should say that I have never used Budd, or Turnbull & Asser.

However, I am hopeful that my latest 'find' - John Brian - could be the man to raise my opinion of London's shirtmakers. So far he's made me one shirt, and it's good. I plan to return to him soon.

Have any other members used Mr Brian? He was recommended to me by Joe Morgan of Chittleborough & Morgan, a man who's suits are better finished than any other tailor I know.
Does anyone here use Morgan & Chittleborough?

Manself wrote:So far my mental list of true bespoke shirtmakers has one name on it: Charvet. Not that I've put Charvet to the test, for reasons of geography and economy. Who else should be on the list?

I have had a lot of shirts made, by a lot of different shirtmakers (mostly in London) and so far I'm yet to find anyone that I can recommend. In fairness I should say that I have never used Budd, or Turnbull & Asser.

However, I am hopeful that my latest 'find' - John Brian - could be the man to raise my opinion of London's shirtmakers. So far he's made me one shirt, and it's good. I plan to return to him soon.

Have any other members used Mr Brian? He was recommended to me by Joe Morgan of Chittleborough & Morgan, a man who's suits are better finished than any other tailor I know.
Does anyone here use Morgan & Chittleborough?

What exactly is a "true bespoke shirtmaker"? An recent entry on another thread suggests there is no such thing in London, which is a bit strong. If someone takes proper measurements, and, accounting for the peculiarities of ones form and posture, cuts a unique pattern and the fabric by hand, adjusts the pattern on a trial shirt and has the shirts made under his or her direct instruction, I will accept that as a definition of bespoke. In the end it is the service and the result that counts, albeit there is a strong sense of satisfaction in helping preserve the skills involved.

I have been satisfied completely by the service and results I have received from Mr. Whitaker at Dege. Perhaps I am not fussy but if, as Mr Alden suggests, the cuffs and collar fit properly and combine as they should with my coat, and if I am comfortable sitting, standing and moving, I am not too concerned about how neat the back of my shirt looks; I don't want to be seen without my coat in decent company anyway!

On a recent visit to Budd I enquired about having some shirts made. The very helpful Gentleman suggested that if their stock shirt fits well, then there is no real need to go bespoke. He says that he doesn't do it, and he didn't think I would benefit from it. My main priority with shirts is the high arm hole so that I can move freely without pulling. I find with Budd, that all the right parts of the shirt are in the right place. I happened to be discussing Budd with a friend and he really put his finger on it. He said, " You put it on and it feels like a tent...then you look in the mirror, and it looks great!" I would like to try bespoke but I find the minimum order a bit off putting. I did try M2m....never again!

Besmoke

..You are right Mr.Alden. There is no

Besmoke

without fire...the one they should be put on!

In the end it is the service and the result that counts, albeit there is a strong sense of satisfaction in helping preserve the skills involved.

Scot, it is the result that counts. It does not matter how you get there, it matters that you get there. It would be wrong to paint MTM with a too broad brush. There are probably many makers who get things very right. But a large majority of MTM shirts I have seen are grossly unfair facsimiles and do not do justice to the client or the trade. If one can't the wrist of a shirt properly measured and buttoned so the sleeve is not in constant movement up and down the arm, one should be in some other kind of business. Buyer beware, that is the message.

Michael

You'll learn the process, make all of the mistakes, discover your style, and learn whether bespoke is for you or not.

Uppercase,

Great Point. Bespoke isn't for everyone, even if it is a bit a la mode these days. If you don't have the sensibility for handmade products and fantasize about perfection, you are better off buying computer cut and machine made clothes.

Michael

So is there a consensus to the correct sleeve length for a shirt? My NYC made shirts end at the middle of the thenar eminence (the fleshy part of the thumb). My one Neapolitan shirt ends at the wrist (the radiocarpal joint to be more precise).

The placement of the cuff is a question of taste and comfort. What is important is that the shirts be made the same way each time, so they work with your coat consistently. And the buttoning should be firm so the cuff does not travel. I prefer them at the wrist not the thumb.