Johnstons of Elgin

"The brute covers himself, the rich man and the fop adorn themselves, the elegant man dresses!"

-Honore de Balzac

Scot
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Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:24 am

hectorm wrote:Laird it is indeed and not Lair.
Scot wrote: It's been fun to compare her way of working and the end product with that of my SR tailor!
Is there any of that fun that you may share with us (without hurting anybody´s feelings, of course)? This is a topic in which all LL members are very interested.
Ok, let me try to say something useful about my own experience of working with a Savile Row and a provincial tailor. I have been working with both for roughly the same length of time - about six years. When I decided to ake the plunge and go to a Savile Row tailor I did my research as thoroughly as I could and, in the end, chose one of the smaller but very well established firms based on the reputation of the cutter. I'm very happy with the choice I made; I was instantly made to feel welcome and valued. I subsequently discovered that both head cutters knew the business inside out. My first suit was the best fitting suit I had ever put on and I was hooked. There is much talk in threads about number of fittings, service and quality on the Row, etc, so I will say a little of my experience of these things.

The rule for me seemed to be one basted fitting and then straight to fit. This was about 95% successful; as I became more experienced and, thanks to the LL, a little more knowledgable, I became slightly more critical and could see minor faults that needed attention. This meant taking garments back to be adjusted after a period of wear. I know this is probably quite a common way of working but it seemed to me that a little more care at the fitting stage could have avoided the need for it. At the very least I would have expected the adjustment to find its way back to the pattern, but this didn't always seem to happen. After the retirement of my cutter I have moved on to his previous partner, who has actually taken much more care in the fitting of my first suit with him, and made some adjustments to the pattern already that are distinct improvements. It would seem that this new cutter is also a little more open to customer suggestions than the previous one. SR is a place of tradition and, if you go to a tailor with a military tradition you know what to expect. No point going there and asking for soft shoulders. When I previously asked for a coat with 3 buttons rolled to 2.5 I was given a hard stare and told that was an American affectation. It was with some difficulty that I managed to get a coat made with flat sleeveheads as opposed to roped. This kind of thing may irritate some customers or potential customers but looking back on it now it makes me smile because I think I agree with the cutter!

I travel to London 7 or 8 times a year and the intervals are just about right for the bespoke process! I have always simply said to them: "this is when I will be back, can you have it ready?" I can't recall the answer ever having been no and I can't recall them ever failing to have the next stage ready on time. The making is done out of house but to my eyes the quality is fantastic. Yes, some of the work that purists would like to see done by hand is done by machine, but this does not detract from the end result from my perspective.

The SR house is a highly professional outfit. There are some very very talented people working for it and the results are of a high standard. You would expect all of this on Savile Row, surely. But they are a business with huge overheads and, I guess, the only way for them to get by is to keep costs to a minimum, which might involve cutting the odd corner where it does not impact on the quality of the product.

AB is originally from Germany, where she may have begun her training; she certainly completed it at a City of London tailor. She is the genuine article, producing bespoke clothing in the sense that all LL members would understand it, and she cuts and makes everything herself. I began using her because she has a shop 10 minutes walk from my house. Ideal you might think, but the relationship hasn't been without its difficulties. For a start it is rather difficult to predict when she will actually be in her shop, so that 10 min walk has frequently been in vain! Again, as I have become more knowledgable I have noticed problems with the coat pattern - but rather more severe ones than with the SR coats. Recently I took a couple of coats back for some major reconstruction and we discussed the problems, pulled them apart and put them back together until they were mostly fixed. This took a while but I think both AB and I learned a lot from the process. In the end she decided for the next commission, the saxony you see in this thread, she would go back to the beginning and draft a completely new pattern. You have some idea of the outcome but even this involved four or five (I lost count) fittings. Here is the difference; if you have ready access to your tailor and they are willing to strive, with you, to achieve the best possible outcome the process itself becomes "fun", and educational!

As I say, there are frustrations: AB has no concept of time, so deadlines are never met. I now know this and have learned to shrug my shoulders and go back two weeks later. She seems to be very busy, not especially well organised and probably no great businesswoman. But I can call in unexpected, sit on the one wooden chair and thumb through bunches and chew over future projects. The quality of the finishing is generally good, but nowhere near that achieved at my SR house. I have continued to use AB because I feel that if you have a genuine bespoke tailor around the corner you should patronise them; there are so few left. But I can also now see the fruits of perseverance. Quite how she makes a living I have no idea. Which brings me to the final comparison: cost.

SR single breasted suit - £3500, AB single breasted suit £1100, another reason for me to persevere with AB! It would be interesting to know, however, what the real difference in costs was once overheads are removed.
Rowly
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Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:11 am

When I previously asked for a coat with 3 buttons rolled to 2.5 I was given a hard stare and told that was an American affectation.
I have been told exactly the same thing, more than once.

Thanks, Scot.....a very helpful and informative post. You are lucky to have a proper Tailor on your doorstep. If that facility was available to me...there would be very little of the doorstep left :D Keep up the good work !..Rowly.
davidhuh
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Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:35 pm

Dear Scot,

very interesting story, thank you for sharing. I agree with you, keep them both. AB is improving, which is a good sign.

I think a tailor needs a critical amount of customers to stay fit and to improve his technique over time. There could be some items you simply cannot expect AB to do a decent job because she might lack the experience. Something you could also try is having trousers made by AB and coats at SR. Trousers are technically less challenging and you might see little difference between the two.

Regarding your final question about the "real price difference" - I believe there is no answer. You cannot compare the two businesses. AB has a tiny shop with a low rent, is likely not counting her hours too well and might not work at the SR speed either. So we would be comparing apples with tomatoes :)

cheers, david
Scot
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Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:09 pm

Rowly wrote: If that facility was available to me...there would be very little of the doorstep left
That made me laugh. Immediately after writing the above I passed by AB's shop. She waved some Johnstons cashmere swatches, recently received, under my nose. Wow, my powers of resistance were tested to the limit and I know that I have only managed to put off the inevitable. There was a PoW there that has to be mine, the doorstep can go to ruin.
davidhuh wrote: Something you could also try is having trousers made by AB
Funny you should say that; she makes excellent trousers and I had already decided to have her make all my odd trousers from now on. At £200 per pair she is pretty unbeatable. I am not sure I have quite got the courage to ask my SR tailor to make the coats for my suits but not the trousers. I know there is a precedent but some are in a better position to get away with it!
Rowly
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Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:29 pm

Be careful of variations in the weave. You might want to order all the cloth together to ensure a perfect match. Or, at least, place the two orders simultaneously to ensure both parties get lengths from the same part of the bolt.
davidhuh
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Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:45 pm

Scot wrote:(...) she makes excellent trousers and I had already decided to have her make all my odd trousers from now on. At £200 per pair she is pretty unbeatable. I am not sure I have quite got the courage to ask my SR tailor to make the coats for my suits but not the trousers. I know there is a precedent but some are in a better position to get away with it!
Dear Scot,

you are the customer and bespeaker, you decide how things are done. If asked, you say "trousers overseas" - every tailor will understand.

Rowly is right, buy the cloth at once. I do it sometimes, not always, with LL subscriptions, X metres for trousers & X metres for the coat.

cheers, David
alden
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Thu Jul 05, 2012 7:26 pm

When I previously asked for a coat with 3 buttons rolled to 2.5 I was given a hard stare and told that was an American affectation.
An oldtimer from Anderson & Sheppard who knew Pete Sheppard told me that not only had A & S made the 3 roll 2 from the very beginning of its history (for Brit clients) but that Scholte had made it as well for his UK clients. Windsors eclectic two button is essentially a three roll two without the third button. The style was very popular so much so that when a few Yanks like Astaire donned the style, America went crazy for the ultimate British chic embodied in the cut. Finally the 3 roll 2 went out of fashion in the UK but that fact did not deter Americans from ordering it and they have kept it going along with the Italians who copied and adopted it as well.

Now when Brit tailors the likes of those in Orson Welles vignette get on their high horse, I very much enjoy bringing them down to earth with this recitation of their own forgotten sartorial history. You would be amazed how cowed and placid they become when they hear the "real" story! :D :D :!:

Cheers
hectorm
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Thu Jul 05, 2012 7:33 pm

Scot wrote:
hectorm wrote:
Is there any of that fun that you may share with us (without hurting anybody´s feelings, of course)? This is a topic in which all LL members are very interested.
Ok, let me try to say something useful.....
It's useful indeed -at least comforting- to know that there are more of us out there debating the same dilemmas.
Thank you very much Scot for obliging my request. For a minute I had thought I was putting you between a rock and a hard place.
couch
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Thu Jul 05, 2012 7:45 pm

As to the "pants across the water" question, I had no resistance at all from Philip Parker at Poole when I proposed this for a specific suit. He seemed to think it made perfect sense. Partly I felt that the quality of the cloth (not my best selection ever) might not merit the full treatment from Poole, and partly I wanted a more cost-effective option for a second pair of trousers. I haven't yet had them made, since it took several adjustments to get the jacket right, but I expect to have them done by a made-to-measure trousermaker in NYC who's done good work for me in the past. I'm not hard to fit in trousers, and the make and detailing can be quite good, so this is an attractive solution for such a summer suit.
Scot
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Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:10 pm

alden wrote:
When I previously asked for a coat with 3 buttons rolled to 2.5 I was given a hard stare and told that was an American affectation.
An oldtimer from Anderson & Sheppard who knew Pete Sheppard told me that not only had A & S made the 3 roll 2 from the very beginning of its history (for Brit clients) but that Scholte had made it as well for his UK clients. Windsors eclectic two button is essentially a three roll two without the third button. The style was very popular so much so that when a few Yanks like Astaire donned the style, America went crazy for the ultimate British chic embodied in the cut. Finally the 3 roll 2 went out of fashion in the UK but that fact did not deter Americans from ordering it and they have kept it going along with the Italians who copied and adopted it as well.

Now when Brit tailors the likes of those in Orson Welles vignette get on their high horse, I very much enjoy bringing them down to earth with this recitation of their own forgotten sartorial history. You would be amazed how cowed and placid they become when they hear the "real" story! :D :D :!:

Cheers
My Brit tailor was nothing like those in the vignette, just loyal to his house style. I am sure that, had I pushed a tiny bit, he would have provided exactly what was bespoken. As I said, looking back I am glad I took the advice.
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