Jermyn St the peking order of shirtmakers

[AlexanderKabbaz]

Looking at the problem from my selfish end, I am happy not to be left waiting for delivery of a good that doesn't exist.

With this we are in absolute concurrance. Your "selfish" end is the only end which counts.

[Mark Seitelman]

As a Turnbull customer I can attest to the following:

It's an international, commercial operation with a division of labor and assembly line. It's not an artisanal operation.

The level of craftmanship has probably declined over the years and reflects society's general attitude to old world craft. E.g., Paul Cuss, the former holder of the royal warrant, was a shirt cutter. When he retired he passed the warrant to his son-in-law, Steven Quinn, who is not a shirtmaker. He doesn't retire to the back room to cut the pattern after meeting the customer. Similarly, Simon Hobbs, its NYC store manager, is not a shirt cutter. He takes measurements, and he e-mails them to the UK. He also takes a couple of digital photos.

I understand that some shirts are cut in the London store. None are cut in NYC. All instructions are e-mailed. The shirt is is made in the factory in the English countryside.

Therefore, there is no, close personal supervision that you would get where everything is done under one roof.

For most men this arrangement is acceptable, and they are very happy with the product. Indeed, Turnbull has a cadre of staunch loyalists who eagerly await each new season's offering of exclusive fabrics.

Although there are many botched orders and mis-fits, the successful orders outnumber the bad ones. The misfires are part of the cost of doing business on this basis.

For those who want the Turnbull fabric, Turnbull sells them in 2 yard packages that can be brought to your shirtmaker. I have done this twice. If you need more fabric, you can buy it in the quantities that you wish.

Cheers.

[K-tie]

I had some shirts made by T&A last year. Although not based in London, I got my measurements made by their bespoke service in Jermyn street (or actually the side street to J). The first sample I got was really bad. So I brought it with me on my next trip to London and had it reviewed. Alterations were made and the next sample was perfect.

At the same time I also went to Hilditch & Key next door. I wanted to do some comparsions. Their sample shirt was quite good, so I went ahead with the whole order. Unfortunately the shirt they made the sample of was of a different weave than the others. Somehow the other shirts shrinked more and and are now far from perfect. Is this normal?

Conclusion is that I may visit T&A again, although I am more likely to try something new and more vibrant (Udeshi perhaps...?). I will not visit H&K again (bought some hosiery there as well - it has shrinked to half size, despite careful hand washing).

BTW - I got my LL tie a few days ago. I ordered late, but the tie is absolutely stunning!

K-Tie

[Cantabrigian]

As part of my mini-tour of European shirtmakers last Saturday, I had a fitting with Harvie and Hudson in the Barclay hotel.

One thing that was immediately obvious was how widely the quality of the experience can vary based on the salesman you get. This was the first time I actually spoke with Richard Harvie about the fit of the shirt. It was nice to deal with someone a bit younger who very much understands the desire for a very slim fit on a shirt.

Richard thought they could do shanked buttons for an additional fee but wasn't even sure - which was a bit disappointing. I'm waiting to hear back as to exactly how much that will be but I think that I will go for it provided the fee isn't exorbiant.

The fabric selection is rather broad, though I didn't recognize the names of many of the fabric mills. I settled on a pink-lite blue royal oxford that gives off a lavendar appearance from a distance and a pink-blue large windowpane pinpoint. I mentioned that strict pattern matching was something that I was very concerned about but I received no assurances as to the quality of that, even when I offered to pay another additional fee for the 'extra' hassle.

So I will be interested to see what's there when I go to pick up my shirts next month. They seem to be open to continual refinements to my pattern but I am cautious about the quality of some of the sewing, the pattern-matching and how they affix the buttons.

[Gruto]

Your experience with Harvie & Hudson reminds me of earlier discussions about "house style". If you really want to try different shirtmakers why don't go for their house style? I find it risky to ask H&H for a very slim fit - it's simply not their style. You risk that sleeves are made for a classic H&H shirt, and only the body is slim.

When it comes to pattern matching, I think Richard Harvie has become a bit worried about your definition of pattern matching. I have proof that they can do it ok.

[AlexanderKabbaz]

The definition of pattern matching is simple. Where parallel stripes meet, they should join seamlessly with each other. For example, pockets, yoke-to-sleeve, sleeve plackets, center front. Same goes for checks and plaids. Simple.

Edit: Apologies for the oversight. Note that there would be an exception for the yoke-to-sleeve seam of certain Neapoitan-styled shirts due to the pleating.

[Cantabrigian]

Alex
You mean to say that you don’t pleat your Neopolitan sleeveheads so that the patterns match?

… slacker

Gruto
I’m afraid that I quite misunderstood your previous post.

I read too much into the fact that you indicated (1) pattern matching isn’t standard (which I would have hoped it would be on a ~$300 shirt) and (2) that when they did the pattern matching, it was only ok, rather good or exact, etc.

I really thought that you were saying that they obviously made an attempt at pattern matching but didn’t do it too exactly. I think that I almost prefer no attempt at pattern matching to the ‘tried but not too hard’ look.

You bring up an interesting point about house styles. I had assumed (perhaps naively) that any good shirtmaker can produce a very slim fit. So far, my fitter Richard – a young guy himself – has good a darn good job of it. Though I did pin the sample shirt to a sloppy version of the fit I wanted.


I also found out that shanked buttons will cost 27.50 Pounds per shirt. So I think I am going to do it. It’s something of a dollar auction situation – 155 Pounds is already too much to pay for a shirt I’m not very happy with so why not pay a bit more and make sure it’s something I’m very happy with.

[AlexanderKabbaz]

Alex
You mean to say that you don’t pleat your Neopolitan sleeveheads so that the patterns match?

… slacker

Actually, I do. But everyone knows my deck only contains 47 cards.

I also found out that shanked buttons will cost 27.50 Pounds per shirt.

I have heard tell that this is just slightly more than "the best custom shirtmaker in the United States**" charges for the same service. Although I do shanked buttons in the normal course, I certainly can't figure out how a max of 15 minutes additional labor equates to $50. At $200 per hour and 8 hours per shirt, mine would have to sell for $1600 plus fabric. Well ... OK ... I can live with that.

** Source: FilmNoirBuff dot com

[uppercase]

How many cards are normally in a deck other than Alex's?

[Costi]

52 in uppercase and 47 in lowercase (plus jokers - me, that is)
You could be my guest to a game of Canasta with a full 110 cards if I (or you) didn't live so far away.
Tarot decks, the ancestor of modern playing cards, have 78. Plus they can be used for divinatory purposes when parlour games are not played with them.

[Cantabrigian]

I have heard tell that this is just slightly more than "the best custom shirtmaker in the United States**" charges for the same service. Although I do shanked buttons in the normal course, I certainly can't figure out how a max of 15 minutes additional labor equates to $50. At $200 per hour and 8 hours per shirt, mine would have to sell for $1600 plus fabric. Well ... OK ... I can live with that.

** Source: FilmNoirBuff dot com

I was genuinely surprised at the cost. I had figured around $2-3 a button at the most. But at $5-6, you’re getting close to the cost of hand-made suit buttonholes…

Since it was a flat fee, I was sure to ask for three-button cuffs and two-button collars.

[bry2000]

Is it typical for the Englsh shirtmakers to charge extra to shank the buttons?

[AlexanderKabbaz]

The big pimple in the middle of the nose that we're all avoiding is this: That is not the cost to "shank" the buttons. That is the cost to pull them off the production line where the buttons would have been machine sewn and to put them in a person's hand for hand-sewing.

[manton]

AK: I assume you are talking about Paris Custom Shirts. To be fair to them, the price is not $50 merely for shanked buttons. It is $50 to upgrade to the same thick MOP buttons that you use. That $50 thus includes the buttons themselves, plus the labor to shank them. By default, Paris uses a rather thin MOP button that is attached by machine and not shanked.

The $50 is also presented as a flat fee. So if your shirt has seven buttons (six front, plus one collar) or 13 (seven front, two collar, two cuff, two gauntlet) the price is the same, so far as I know.

[AlexanderKabbaz]

AK: I assume you are talking about Paris Custom Shirts.

You know me better than to say that. I won't comment upon the work of a single bespoke maker. Paris may, though I have no first-hand knowledge, be one example of the practice, but are certainly not the only such example. The $XX upcharge policy is actually common among many mid-level shirtmakers. My objection here is less to the policy discussed here and more to the philosophy of "nickel and diming" the client to death. As you know, except for the collar I term the "Italian" collar, I have absolutely no upcharges. Whatever the client wants in the shirt is what they get for the stated (and published) price.

Why? It is the shirtmaker, not the client, who should be determining the quality level of his work with which he is satisfied. If that is

"a rather thin MOP button that is attached by machine and not shanked"

then so be it. If the thin, machine sewn MOP is good enough that you're willing to put your name on it that is fine ... do so. But to offer this option and that option and the other option which, if all were selected, would add up to doubing the price per shirt, is simply misleading.

I'm sorry if I sould a bit touchy on this point, but it is a firm and long-held belief. There can be nothing more important than my willingness to state that "it is the best I can do or I wouldn't put my name on it".