The 3-Roll-2 Single Breasted Suit

[ay329]

I finally get it...it appears with the foofed look, teplitz might appear trimmer.

But I still like the original look.

Thus it comes down to what is one's style depending on their body type? If one is fuller, like myself, does one prefer a higher button look or a more opening look which might make me look slimmer

[Costi]

We also do not see the Duke's full height in this photo, so one can't judge the degree to which this buttoning affects the overall proportions.

[couch]

Thanks, Costi, for the "full body" shots. The lower, in which the Duke is not bending forward, indeed shows well-balanced if unusual proportions. The jacket is cut to end exactly at the trouser fork (at the short end of the acceptable range) and the (lower) button point is very high, very nearly at the natural waist. The two buttons are also placed close together, so the difference in effect between buttoning one or the other is lessened. The DoW stayed relatively slim, and the short coat and high button stance elongate his legs and thus increase the impression of height.

Given the close spacing of the buttons and the high placement of the lower one, I think buttoning either alone would give perfectly acceptable proportions (remember, we've seen the lapel line on his other "Duke's 2" jackets with both buttoned). I don't think buttoning the top one alone would give a "bell-like" effect on this jacket, though buttoning the lower one gives a slouchier, less dressy, and thus more degagé effect, which is no doubt what he wanted for this jacket with its crescent hip pockets and voluble pattern. Nevertheless it's still not my favorite of his looks. And it only works because even with the lower button buttoned, the jacket's horizontal tension line is well above the hip (no danger of stomach appearing to protrude) and because that tension line (which creates the ensemble's apparent waistline) is so high--nearly two-thirds of the collar-to-cuff distance. If the middle button of a three-button jacket were set at the same point on him, we'd think it was only an inch or so below its ideal point, I suspect.

The real lesson in proportions here is how, using cutaway quarters and short jacket with a high button stance, a short slight man exploits the illusion of longer legs to give an impression of height.

[Costi]

Couch, I agree the look is remarkably balanced. I may not have chosen the best photograph (the second one) because one arm is raised to salute (pulling the coat up and making it appear a little shorter than it is) and the other one is stuffed in the trouser pocket, forcing the front quarters open (more than they are by design).
Perhaps the following two pictures show the proportions of this suit even better:


There is not one picture of the Duke wearing this style of two button coat (one above and one below the natural waist) with only the top button buttoned. In my experience (I tried this cut with my LL Sicilian PoW tweed, minus the crescent pockets) it would look like a three button coat with only the top button buttoned and, because the front quarters are already quite open, it causes them to sway even further appart - hence the "bell" look. Buttoning the bottom button on this kind of coat anchors the quarters in their place.
Here is another coat, cut and worn in the same style:

Here the buttons appear to be placed even lower (but, judging from the coat's length, I am not sure it's not just an illusion) and the bottom button appears definitely lower than where we would expect to see the middle one on a three button coat. It still looks good to me, but the coat does have to be cut along ample lines to convey that degage look you aptly described above.
The proportions are closely related to those of his Kent-style 4B DB coats, worn with the lapels rolled to the bottom button. Looking at them you will notice the top buttons are not where you would expect the middle row of buttons to be on a 6B DB:


They are actually placed above the waistline (and sometimes further appart on the vertical than in a 6B configuration) so that, with the lapels rolled to the bottom, they don't roll too low. I like this look better on him than the "classic" 6B configuration in the second picture. And I also like the SB counterpart of this look better on him than a "classic" 3B coat - which, in spite of the crescent pockets and its being a Scholte, does not speak to me:

Of course, this is not to say it will work so well on everyone...

[couch]

Costi, as I noted above, I completely agree with you about the analogy between this 2-to-1 SB tweed and the DoW's Kent-style DBs. Both require higher than normal button stances to work. I would happily wear such a Kent DB rolled to one and I think it looks much better on the Duke than the SB version worn likewise. I may simply be prejudiced by my intuition of how awful the look would be on me. On the other hand, the Duke never looked better than when wearing morning dress with its single button at the true waist, so I'm sure he would have looked equally superb in a one-button or three-button lounge coat (or two-button with normal stance) buttoned likewise (with the lapels rolled rather than pressed flat at the top button as in your photo above). I presume his choice of the high 2-button jacket was a deliberate one to dress down the effect. I just don't care for it much, whether both buttons are closed or only the lower one. You and I may simply not share this taste.

As to the "bell" effect, I wonder whether the Duke's aversion to buttoning only the top button was reinforced by another motivation: the desire to avoid any association with the "old-fashioned" high-button style of late Victorian/Edwardian coat that was cut to fall away when only the top button was done. Sator has shown many engravings of this style; several of the older characters in the original BBC "Forsyte Saga" wore it. A quick search has only turned up two photos, both coats completely open but showing the line, one of (I believe) Monty in the new version of the Forsyte Saga, and the other of the future George V as PoW in 1891. The Duke may have associated that high-button-point line with the formality and stuffiness of his childhood that he rebelled against in so many areas.

[steve harley]

a bespoke xperience that is turning unacceptable! discreet advice would be gratefully recieved ! thank you

[Scot]

Back to the 3 roll 2, I think I have had a "Costi - ticket pocket" - like epiphany! I have seen recent pictures of coats, which at first glance appeared to be 2B, and thought "that's nice". However, on closer inspection there has been that dreaded button hole peaking at me from the bottom of the lapel and I have really wondered what on earth the point of it was. If you want long elegant lapels rolled gently towards the fastening button why not just have them. That top button hole is functionless and ugly. Sorry, I'm in a provocative mood today.

[alden]

Back to the 3 roll 2, I think I have had a "Costi - ticket pocket" - like epiphany! I have seen recent pictures of coats, which at first glance appeared to be 2B, and thought "that's nice". However, on closer inspection there has been that dreaded button hole peaking at me from the bottom of the lapel and I have really wondered what on earth the point of it was. If you want long elegant lapels rolled gently towards the fastening button why not just have them. That top button hole is functionless and ugly. Sorry, I'm in a provocative mood today.

I have the real 3B, 3 roll 2 (showing and not showing top buttonhole), and 2B. I like them all. If I had to pick one, it would be the real 3.

I am glad to see you in a "provocative mood." I think strong feelings and intuitions are a good thing, but think about those "positive" intuitions, the things that make you want to swagger and beam. Those are the things you will wear well. Leave the rest of the stuff to others who might find them positive. Concentrate on finding the strong positive emotions and feelings in your dress. Have the clothes made that correspond to these gut feelings. Then you can be assured that you will dress yourself well. The psychological aspect of dressing with style is the most often overlooked. And this is a shame because it is arguably the most important.

Cheers

Michael

[Greger]

To add a little more to what Michael said.

There are more ways to do 3 roll 2, 3 roll 2 1/2, 3 roll top button never buttoned, to me, some are ugly; while others are works of art, so very desirable.

Another reason, that I haven't seen in years, is that a 3 roll 2... can be shaped so that a protruding stomach doesn't seem to stick out so much, therefore giving the illusion that the person is thinner.

It really comes down to How it is Done.

[Costi]

Back to the 3 roll 2, I think I have had a "Costi - ticket pocket" - like epiphany!

Ticket pocket? Did someone say "ticket pocket"?

That top button hole is functionless and ugly.

But your coats certainly have a lapel buttonhole, which is equally functionless (most of the time). That is why it is hard to explain your likes and dislikes. There are no arguments after all.

Michael, great path to style!

[Scot]

Back to the 3 roll 2, I think I have had a "Costi - ticket pocket" - like epiphany!

Ticket pocket? Did someone say "ticket pocket"?

That top button hole is functionless and ugly.

But your coats certainly have a lapel buttonhole, which is equally functionless (most of the time). That is why it is hard to explain your likes and dislikes. There are no arguments after all.

Michael, great path to style!

Lets face it, argument is pretty thin on the ground on both sides. It is, as Michael says, a matter of gut feeling.

My first gut feeling is that a buttonhole staring me square in the face from the bottom of a lapel has no business being there. It's jarring.

My second gut feeling is that the top buttonhole on a proper 3B coat may be mostly functionless but it doesn't jar because it looks as though it COULD be buttoned. I agree that the lived-in look of a 3B that has rolled naturally to 2.5 can be elegant. Whether it is worthwhile, therefore, trying to create that effect I am not sure.

My third gut feeling is that if the key to elegence is simplicity it would seem better to go for 3B or 2B and wear them well, perhaps even with "swagger".

It is, of course, all a matter of individual choice. How the coat is worn, and with what, is, for sure, more important than such detail.

[Costi]

My own gut feeling is that I don't like 2B coats, but I don't like the short lapels on true 3B coats, either (at least not on me). So my best bet is that natural roll to 2.5 that you describe as "can be elegant". I am not particularly fond of 3 roll 2 with a buttonhole turned 180 degrees, either. 90 degrees is ideal for me.