3 buttons with lapels rolled to second

[manton]

I had a course from Bernard Williams my first year of college, 1987.

[storeynicholas]

I thought this was of those features to which Berkeley’s dictum esse est percipi would truly apply.

Marcelo - This is difficult to understand - and I shall get mixed up - as I a still reading your paper on Grotius.
NJS

This line, I had suggested, can hardly be drawn, for appearing, in this case, almost amounts to being – something vaguely reminiscent of Berkeley’s theory according to which reality consists exactly in being perceived, in appearing as the object of someone’s perception. But I think Radicaldog has already explained his point.

I am not sure about the man that is affected and does not disguise it. Is he different from the man that unsuccessfully seeks to disguise it? Does the unsuccessful attempt affect the reality; especially if the attempt is itself perceived?
NJS

[Costi]

While the philosophical digression is very enjoyable (and instructive, for me) I think that, with respect to lapel roll versus number of buttons we are really debating the sex of angels. I remain of the opinion that a 3B rolled bellow third (2 or 2.5) affects the look of a lived-in 3B coat. In essence, it is a shortcut. Versatility is an added bonus, an effect. And, if done right, it may look very well and not any more affected and untrue than cuff buttons and buttonholes or a lapel buttonhole on a coat that doesn't button all the way up.

[SV]

Sirs, would it be another digression from the subject if we discuss the collar button as well? The third button must be practical but a collar button which you can see in tweed coats made for actual outdoor use certainly is. You can button up you coat up to your neck. Do you think it is proper only for tweed coats? Is it appropriate for Rus In Urbe setting? For me, practicality and versatility are important. In a heavy tweed coat all those buttons seem appropriate even though a working collar makes the collar asymmetrical (which personally wouldn't bother me at all).

SV

[radicaldog]

NJS:

I am not sure about the man that is affected and does not disguise it. Is he different from the man that unsuccessfully seeks to disguise it? Does the unsuccessful attempt affect the reality; especially if the attempt is itself perceived

(Preventive apologies to those who can't suffer hairsplitting discussions). I suppose there is a difference between the two men, for one of them doesn't mind being perceived as affected, and other one does. So there is no difference in what external observers perceive, but there is a difference from the internal point of view as well as sub specie aeternitatis (i.e. the omniscent 'view from nowhere').

Costi:

I remain of the opinion that a 3B rolled bellow third (2 or 2.5) affects the look of a lived-in 3B coat. In essence, it is a shortcut. Versatility is an added bonus, an effect.

This probably turns on the motivation on the basis of which the wearer chooses this style (a point related to the 'internal point of view' I mentioned above). Some may choose it for the added versatility, some may choose it because it's a shortcut toward a lived-in look.

SV:

The third button must be practical but a collar button which you can see in tweed coats made for actual outdoor use certainly is ... even though a working collar makes the collar asymmetrical

I have a 3 roll 2 corduroy coat with collar button. The bit with the buttonhole that sticks out of the left lapel collar can be folded and buttoned underneath the collar (I hope I've explained myself well), so if you want you can remove 95% of the asymmetry. If you look closely, of course, you can see that there is no stitching around that small area. Anyway I rarely wear it with the concealed buttonhole, as the asymmetry doesn't bother me at all.

Another, more discreet, way of doing this is the solution I have on my Loden coat: the little flap used to button up the collar is not an extension of the lapel collar, but is attached to it via a button. So when not in use you can turn it around and attach the other end to a second button which is set further back on the collar. Again, somewhat complicated to explain, but very straightforward in practice.

[SV]

radicaldog,
Thank you for good suggestions. I understand perfectly what you mean. I might have seen both of those somewhere. I think I'm beginning to see some features I want for my first tweed coat.

SV

[pbc]

The third button must be practical but a collar button which you can see in tweed coats made for actual outdoor use certainly is. You can button up you coat up to your neck.SV

I haven't seen any jackets with buttons (and button holes) all the way up the lapel, which I think is necessary for actually keeping out the elements. Some frock coats have these, but lapel buttons and holes (save one) seem to have been lost to history. Are some tweeds still made this way?

I recall one movie where Cary Grant did have a button opposite his lapel button hole and buttoned it up for rain or driving (don't recall which), leaving a large "button gap" from the top button to the regular coat button but still holding it closed better than without.

So, in relation to the 3 roll 2 discussion, buttons continuing up the lapel (4 roll 2 or 5 roll 2 including the top lapel button/hole) seems like a practical application for a tweed (functional outdoor) garment. Is this still done?

pbc

[Costi]

Sirs, would it be another digression from the subject if we discuss the collar button as well? The third button must be practical but a collar button which you can see in tweed coats made for actual outdoor use certainly is. You can button up you coat up to your neck. Do you think it is proper only for tweed coats? Is it appropriate for Rus In Urbe setting? For me, practicality and versatility are important. In a heavy tweed coat all those buttons seem appropriate even though a working collar makes the collar asymmetrical (which personally wouldn't bother me at all).

SV

Here is my answer:



It is a 3B roll to 2. When the collar is raised and the lapels reversed, the third button (which is otherwise hidden behind the lapel) is in correspondence with the "show" buttonhole and can be closed. Besides, there is another button under the collar on the right, in correspondence with the tab. On a thick and heavy Harris tweed like this, that doesn't really take an overcoat, I find it quite practical to be able to button up to the neck.