New English Bespoke Shirtmaker: Wil Whiting

[bond_and_beyond]

Come to think of it, Budd also did this AND let me keep the extra shirt (which is perfectly wearable).

Mr. Butcher cut my original pattern twenty four years ago. I ordered a few dinner and morning dress shirts with detachable collars, including the one I wore at my wedding. I don't remember what the deal was with the trial shirt back then, but I'm positive that nowadays at Budd for new clients, the trial shirt -the one you wash and wear and serves for guiding adjustments- counts as the first of the minimum order of four.

It does, but they keep remaking it until you are satisfied. For me it took a few trial shirts to get the pattern right and the pen-ultimate shirt had only some very minor issues, but they remade it just the same. I then got to keep the pen-ultimate trial shirt, and ended up with five shirts for the price of four.

Let me spill a bit of rain on "who needs a trial shirt with generous London shirtmakers remaking everything?" parade.

My first shirts from two reputable London houses had not just subtle issues, but obvious *problems* (case a: sleeves that are clearly too short; case b: sleeves and torso too tight). Both deficiencies noticed and corrected in subsequent shirts; but it was me who had to "eat" these first mistakes -- no remakes / replacements offered. Maybe because I didn't pushed for replacements? Or maybe, being an international customer, I was easy to be forgotten about?

True, a trial shirt doesn't guarantee a good fit. But it *does* guarantee that sleeves will be the right length on the first "non-trial" shirt -- it's easy to see and correct such things even for a novice cutter. Thus, I still maintain that it's a useful tool, aimed to improve the standard (defining it as a "minimal acceptable level") of fit.

Andrey

They should remake / fix the trial shirt until it is at the same level as the rest of the order. Just because it is called a "trial shirt" it should not be inferior. In other words the final trial shirt you receive should be exactly what you wanted, otherwise they'll have to keep trying (I had no problem with either T&A or Budd in this regard).

BB

[alden]

True, a trial shirt doesn't guarantee a good fit. But it *does* guarantee that sleeves will be the right length on the first "non-trial" shirt -- it's easy to see and correct such things even for a novice cutter. Thus, I still maintain that it's a useful tool, aimed to improve the standard (defining it as a "minimal acceptable level") of fit.

Andrey

I have never had a “trial” shirt made by a traditional shirtmaker, just like I have never had a “trial suit” made by a tailor. The shirtmaker, like the tailor, takes my measures, drafts a pattern and does fittings, not “trials.”

I tried MTM three times, in UK, France and Italy. Each time they made me a “trial” shirt that was nothing more than my measures sent to a factory and a shirt made from the factories closest block. These trials, in my case, were so far off, it was hopeless to try and reconcile them with my needs; and in each case the merchants realized this fact and begged off. These experiences formed a good deal of my opinion regarding non traditional methods for shirts relative to my own fitting needs. The process seemed so ass backwards. You wouldn't build a house and then ask an architect to draft a plan; and then demolish or redo the house to the plan. Would you? You would build the house according to the drafted plan from the get go.

So, in my mind, the world of “trial” shirts is associated with MTM processes. And yet every UK maker, even Whiting, talks about them and every client of these makers has a story about them. Are traditional shirtmakers simply using “trial” as a synonym for a “fitting.” Or are these MTM methods at work?

You have enough experience to know the difference. You've been through the traditional process with Leo and others. I remember fittings with Leo that went on for hours as he tore apart the fitting, resewed it, fit it, tore it apart, fit it, retouching my pattern at the end of each session etc. That's pretty much how it happened with all the traditional makers I have used. In my case, it is exactly the same, long and challenging process a tailor employs to fit a new client.

Are these UK makers doing this? Or are they delivering a fully made, sewn "trial" shirt? So how in the world do you adjust an already sewn shirt as opposed to a fitting? You can't tear it apart, modify and see the affect of the changes in real time draped on the client. How do you adjust balance, the thing each of our misshapen bodies defy, challenge, impede and contradict? (Whiting clearly did not in the picture posted.) How do you adjust sleeve pitch? (Whiting clearly did not in the picture posted.) How do you adjust all the little details of fit on a shirt that is already made?

Cheers

[alden]

a thousand dollars a pop

I have never paid more than $80 to have a fully custom hand-crafted shirt made. And I cringe thinking eighty was a real extravagance because I normally spent half of that.

Next year, my oldest hand sewn shirt will celebrate its 40th birthday. Yeah, it is older than most of you guys. And that led me to a reflection on the durability of hand versus machine sewn shirts. The disinformation normally broadcast on the net is that hand sewn shirts are too fragile. Well, with the benefit of forty years experience now behind me I can say that I have never had a problem with a single one of the hand sewn shirts I have had made. Some of them had to have new cuffs or collars as is expected, but never any other repair. Go fly that flag in front of the net know it alls...

Cheers

[andreyb]

Are these UK makers doing this? Or are they delivering a fully made, sewn "trial" shirt? So how in the world do you adjust an already sewn shirt as opposed to a fitting? You can't tear it apart, modify and see the affect of the changes in real time draped on the client. How do you adjust balance, the thing each of our misshapen bodies defy, challenge, impede and contradict? (Whiting clearly did not in the picture posted.) How do you adjust sleeve pitch? (Whiting clearly did not in the picture posted.) How do you adjust all the little details of fit on a shirt that is already made?

The answer (for UK makers I used): you don't. You simply make the customer "eat" the first (yes, fully made and sewn) shirt and hopefully, next one will be better.

Andrey

[bond_and_beyond]

The answer (for UK makers I used): you don't. You simply make the customer "eat" the first (yes, fully made and sewn) shirt and hopefully, next one will be better.

Andrey

Which makers did you use? They should be named and shamed!

BB

[andreyb]

I'd rather not

[hectorm]

I have never paid more than $80 to have a fully custom hand-crafted shirt made. And I cringe thinking eighty was a real extravagance because I normally spent half of that.

Those are incredible low prices for that kind of product. Certainly not Charvet nor Frittolini
In the "modern era" I have only paid around $80 for bench-made shirts at the shop of a semi-retired shirtmaker in Buenos Aires and I had to choose from a very limited selection of fabrics he still had available.
In my experience, you might get away with paying a quality shirtmaker around $80 only in a low wage country and depending of the exchange rate. But nowadays $80 won't even cover -if you have to buy it retail yourself- a couple of yards of Alumo or Riva cottons.

[alden]

Hectorm

I am referring to the cost of the make only, not including cloth. And in many places in Europe that range of pricing is only slightly higher even today and that despite the great general price increases that have occurred because of the net over the last five to six years.

I only mention this because I think the prices asked today for industrially made goods is unfair and excessive. A 10-15 % premium against the like RTW pricing is certainly justified, but no more. In my view, but I am not in the market because my collection will keep me in waddling clothes til I'm 150, at which time my beautiful shirts will be ancient artifacts and as such be donated to museums.

Cheers

[Mark Seitelman]

a thousand dollars a pop

I have never paid more than $80 to have a fully custom hand-crafted shirt made. And I cringe thinking eighty was a real extravagance because I normally spent half of that.

* * *

Gee, can you direct me to the $80 shirtmaker?

[alden]

Gee, can you direct me to the $80 shirtmaker?

Sure, get the yellow pages, some good walking shoes and burn some leather in them.

[bond_and_beyond]

Gee, can you direct me to the $80 shirtmaker?

Sure, get the yellow pages, some good walking shoes and burn some leather in them.

And a time machine to 1975

BB

[hectorm]

can you direct me to the $80 shirtmaker?

There are a few of those in Manhattan, Mark, but they charge you 3 o 4 times that price.

[andy57]

Last week, in London, I had a fitting for my first shirt at Budd. I met with their head cutter in San Francisco recently, and took advantage of being in London to have the first fitting. The shirt was in the ballpark but was overall too small. No problem, that's what a fitting is for. The shirt will be remade according to the changes recorded by the cutter, who conducted the fitting. It had much the same feeling as a fitting for a jacket.

The shirt is the first of my order of four shirts. As this is a shirt, not a jacket, I fully expect to receive the shirt and wash it and wear it a few times before deciding on how the fit is, finally. Then I'll meet with the cutter again, probably in San Francisco, and we'll decide whether to proceed with the rest of the order or whether to make some alterations to this first shirt.

My expectations are that this first shirt is not nor will not be some sort of poor relation. The collar is a custom design, the result of discussion between he and I. I expect it will be, when finished, pretty much what I want.

Like David, I don't care about hand-sewn buttonholes and I don't care about hand sewing generally. I want a well made, well-fitting shirt. I have every expectation that I shall receive that, and that all four shirts from this initial order will be just that. Am I missing something?

[bond_and_beyond]

Last week, in London, I had a fitting for my first shirt at Budd. I met with their head cutter in San Francisco recently, and took advantage of being in London to have the first fitting. The shirt was in the ballpark but was overall too small. No problem, that's what a fitting is for. The shirt will be remade according to the changes recorded by the cutter, who conducted the fitting. It had much the same feeling as a fitting for a jacket.

The shirt is the first of my order of four shirts. As this is a shirt, not a jacket, I fully expect to receive the shirt and wash it and wear it a few times before deciding on how the fit is, finally. Then I'll meet with the cutter again, probably in San Francisco, and we'll decide whether to proceed with the rest of the order or whether to make some alterations to this first shirt.

My expectations are that this first shirt is not nor will not be some sort of poor relation. The collar is a custom design, the result of discussion between he and I. I expect it will be, when finished, pretty much what I want.

Like David, I don't care about hand-sewn buttonholes and I don't care about hand sewing generally. I want a well made, well-fitting shirt. I have every expectation that I shall receive that, and that all four shirts from this initial order will be just that. Am I missing something?

Hear hear. That's exactly my same experience with Budd, and indeed with T&A also.

I think for some there is almost a fetish about the Italian backyard makers who have never been touched by the industrial revolution, but for me it is just about getting a shirt that fits well and has a nice collar. MTM couldn't deliver that for me, but bespoke (though I see some do not recognise it as such) from both Budd and T&A have delivered shirts that I am very happy with.

For me the process of making a complete trial shirt which is then worn and washed a few times at home makes perfect sense.

I tried having only a muslin fitting with an Italian maker, and that did not produce a superior fit.

BB

[alden]

Am I missing something?

Doesn't seem like you have. Budd, from what I have read, does, in fact, cut an individual pattern for their clients. And it is tweaked through a fitting process whereupon a first shirt is made to the pattern. That is a good process, if it is true. And making custom collars is a necessary service. Sounds good to me.

Its also good you don't care about handwork, because I don't know where you would find it in the UK anyway. And I appreciate that you, unlike so many others on forums, refuse to dis something just because you can't have it. That is a pitiful human reaction I have trouble understanding. I'd love to be twenty years younger, but I wouldn't go onto a forum and disparage youth.

But I suspect you care much more about hand sewing than you realize. If you wore a fully machine made suit instead of the hand sewn beauties Edwin makes, you would immediately feel the difference in fit and comfort (your stated objectives.) And yet as regards shirts you are convinced that somehow it doesn't matter. Have a hand sewn shirt made and then make the judgement based on experience.

My experience after decades of observation is that men, who would like to dress well, consistently let themselves down with their shirts. They wear ham and egg shirts with caviar suits. The overall result is ham and egg.

Cheers

PS: I really don't care about having a week long mad, passionate love affair with Liz Hurley. I mean she is 52 and she's taken way to much sun. And she wears pink bikinis. Pink! Anyway I really don't like slim, tanned women with great figures. Who cares? Gee I sure don't. So I really don't care at all.

4736CC4C00000578-0-image-a-3_1512993762283 by The London Lounge, on Flickr