First bespoke suit, London

[Costi]

DDM, Shredder - exactly, experiment: what if I didn't have a ticket pocket on my next busines suit?
I absolutely agree that being able to choose what your clothes will look like is one of the joys of bespoke. I enjoy and cherish the variability that we see in bespoke, much unlike the dull uniformity of RTW clothing. But when I look at a bespoke gallery, many garments intrigue me, some make me smile, some make me very sad, and there are always a few I sincerely admire. Bespoke has its hell, purgatory and paradise - one could write a good pastiche to the "Divina Commedia" on its vices, corruptions and virtues.
I find the most difficult thing, especially as a beginner in the bespoke arts, is to understand that elegance is not achieved by adding things (extra pockets, slanted flaps, contrast buttonholes, extra wide lapels) for the sake of individuality, but rather by resisting their fleeting power of seduction. There is a huge temptation, mostly out of enthusiasm and not lack of taste, to "try" things, to be a "designer", the demiurge of your own wardrobe. Most of these experiments tend to become permanent residents of the closet, hardly ever seeing the light of day. Having fun with clothes is great, but if one can be spared a few disappointments, it's even better. It's so easy to get carried away and then be disenchanted that bespoke doesn't seem to look as good on you as it does on others. Bespoke is not cheap and faiures tend to be costly, adding to the frustration. This doesn't mean it needs to be treated like a capital matter or a race for perfection (dreadful notion with respect to clothing) - just not get carried away with "glittering beauty".
I should make it clear that I don't think a ticket pocket will throw an otherwise elegant business suit to the bottom of bespoke hell. It is just the tendency to add things that I think should be resisted in general, if one is at all concerned with elegance. This is mostly meant for future readers that might be attracted by the "first bespoke suit" title, rather than for YoungLawyer who seems to know pretty well what he wants and already made a set of excellent choices (except the bloody ticket pocket! )

[storeynicholas]

Costi- All - FiS included - The poor old ticket pocket! What I cannot understand is this notion that its presence denotes the bucolic; the unrefined; the breaking of form and line. Formal dress never had any outside pockets, in its original form - certainly not the breast pocket for the fussy 'pocket square'. Modern suits, aimed at practicality, do have outside pockets. What are the occasions for using a ticket pocket in the country? Maybe, a betting slip at the races or a raffle ticket at the church fete. What are the occasions for using such a useful appendage in town? - Train tickets; underground tickets; concert tickets; 'bus tickets; opera tickets; theatre tickets; casino plaques - and bigger chips; cab tips; slips of paper, bearing telephone numbers of bold, green-eyed girls who stared and flicked their hair at you; cloakroom tickets and tips; bar and waiter tips and, if you really get lucky, prophylactics and for aftewards, pocket book matches, for good cigarettes.

My favourite cutter retired at 65 in 1998. I guess that he had been born in around 1933; probably apprenticed at 14, in around 1947. If his apprentice-master had been, say, 50 when he took him on, he had been born in 1897 and, apprenticed, at 14, in 1911 - you take this line of skill back to 1803, when Davies & Son had been founded and you will, probably, find an unbroken line of mastery in the evolving correct configuration of these things: from the time of Brummell. If Brummell had permitted himself the indulgence of a ticket pocket from which to tip cabs, he would never have lost his lucky sixpence (from the loss of which he dated his decline).

It was this old cutter of mine that edged me, gradually, towards (gently) sloping pockets and ticket pockets - even on city DB suits - both the edging and the sloping were slight and discreet - but both had a kind of razzmatazz and the results all spoke of that.

He began, at first, on SB city suits and then he took me on, as though he were disclosing a mystery, to ticket pockets on DB city suits - and, as though it had been his intention, all along, to abuse me thus.

But they were great suits and, Young Lawyer,even though Bill Matthews has long gone from Savile Row, if you go up a bit (again), in your mind, from RTW, to MTM, to off-Row makers and find yourself wanting to look at the Warrants on the wall in Davies & Son, wanting the bees' knees, you will not be disappointed - in either the looking or the bespeaking. If you want to emerge from a shop, in a bespoke suit that, with your current, considerable knowledge, really hits the mark; smashes the glasses on the fender, after a single toast - and raises Cain - go there. They won't guarantee perfection. No one, with any sense, does that. No one ever really delivers it in a first suit but, at least, their horizon is constant: they have taken in the names of Johns & Pegg (where Scholte trained) and James & James (to whom Scholte sold out); Wells and Harvey & Fallan.These are not names to be carried lightly; let alone advertised - unless the strength is there to carry the weight of them. They have it. You will be eating into your budget if you go there - and, maybe, you should shelve the dress coat and the second suit, for a little while. If you did, I am sure that you wouldn't regret it.

But, as Fred Pontin used to say: "Book early".
NJS.

[YoungLawyer]

I think I've decided on most things now, except which tailor to go to. Practicality alone probably dictates Sims & McDonald, although they were tremendously welcoming at Connock and Lockie, and both are in close walking distance of my work.
I agree that the 'Y' shaped button stance is more often seen on rtw and a deviation from it would be more obviously bespoke, but I prefer the look. I think it helps give shape to the waist, and a straight row of buttons might work to hide any waist supression.

The other question about the ticket pocket is how close to place it to the hip pocket.

Thank you again to those who posted illustrations - do any of you have any more like that? Any earlier fashion plates or photographs of d/b suits than those? All material would be very useful!

Hopefully I'll be able to book in a first appointment within a few days.

[storeynicholas]

If you choose the right tailor, he'll know how to place the ticket pocket! William Craig at C&L knows of the thread leading up to this and it might be worth mentioning it, if you do go there. They don't seem to have set prices - he seems to consider for a moment and then decides. I don't know anything about Sims & Macdonald and certainly have no reason to run them down but, if you choose C&L you'll get the full works - just one thing (maybe - it's up to you) - ask for wadding and not shoulder pads.
NJS

[shredder]

Modern suits, aimed at practicality, do have outside pockets.

Yes, it's a terrible thing, this notion of practicality! Whilst the boys had been dealing with such ordinary issues since a long time, the girls got introduced to pockets much less than a century ago by the very practical Americans. If I remember what the late Richard Martin told me, it was the late Bill Blass who is guilty of introducing pockets to women's garments. I also recall Richard mentioning something about emancipation in the same breath, but that's when my mind started to wander... But I ramble.

YoungLawyer, there are plenty of Y shaped button configurations seen on bespoke. No need to apologise for it. On the other hand, I do not think that, whilst the Y configuration may supplement the waist suppression, a straight configuration necessarily neutralises the waist suppression. Other things like skirt come into play. Its a composition with many elements rather than a mere collection of bits and pieces, but I think you already knew that. As for the ticket pocket position, I prefer the maximum distance between the bottom of the ticket pocket flap to the top of the hip pocket to be about 1". In practice, I prefer the ticket pocket to be positioned such that its flap is slightly overlapping on the hip pocket, maybe 1/5", and gently sloped. But, of course, don't try this at home!!

s

[storeynicholas]

But, of course, don't try this at home!!

s

...or in the street ... or you'll frighten the horses...
NJS

[Scot]

This chatter about ticket pockets is all very interesting but I think YoungLawyer might be better served by some advice about how to make sure his suit fits! To me this is the greatest challenge faced by those starting out on the bespoke journey. Sadly I am ill-equipped to give that advice, indeed I would be very interested in hearing it. There are many many entries on this forum which mention the need to work with a cutter over time to develop a perfect pattern, if such a thing exists. However, this can be a somewhat haphazard process. If the LL could come up with a "What to look for" guide for the novice bespeaker imagine how helpful this might be!

[YoungLawyer]

"...ask for wadding and not shoulder pads."

Now, this I know nothing of. Please do tell me more, and why you suggest I do so.

And fit may be difficult, any advice there would be welcome. I'm aware to avoid large armholes, and can tell the difference by comparing my old dress coats with my modern, rtw, far from satisfactory, lounge suits. I'm aware that I'll end up with, probably, much thinner arms than on my current suits, but that's a good thing. I know to be aware of my posture, though I am aware that whilst I walk in a very upright way, I slouch dreadfully over my desk - I know which I'd rather be cut for.

One other point concerns how high to ask the lapells to be cut. I see many d/b suits where the lapells seem very low indeed, and that looks very messy. Is there any relation between the shirt collar and the point where the lapel should begin?

[storeynicholas]

This chatter about ticket pockets is all very interesting but I think YoungLawyer might be better served by some advice about how to make sure his suit fits! To me this is the greatest challenge faced by those starting out on the bespoke journey. Sadly I am ill-equipped to give that advice, indeed I would be very interested in hearing it. There are many many entries on this forum which mention the need to work with a cutter over time to develop a perfect pattern, if such a thing exists. However, this can be a somewhat haphazard process. If the LL could come up with a "What to look for" guide for the novice bespeaker imagine how helpful this might be!

By Jeepers, is having a little harmless fun banned?

Anyway - tell the tailor that this is your first bespoke suit and tell him what the suit is for - work in and out of Court presumably. Tell him where - again, presumably - London and major towns and cities. He knows the climate. Tell him whether you expect to be predominantly standing or sitting and whether travelling around very much; hold yourself naturally for the measuring - don't pretend anything - or the suit is not going to fit at the first fitting. Obviously hold yourself naturally at the fittings too. Consider wearing the style of shirt and shoes that you will wear with the suit as this helps to ensure that the trousers fall correctly and that the collar sits nicely. I don't worry too much about arm scyes but if you are going to be dancing in your dress coat - it is a consideration. Choose a material that has a good all round usefulness and, obviously, a sturdy cloth for your first suit. Consider having two pairs of trousers as alternating trousers gives the suit a longer life and is just about essential for a first suit. Don't wear the suit every day - give it a day off in between outings. Have a good long talk and ask about all the options and the pros and cons from the cutter. Shoulder pads are just that - often foam pads that plump up the shoulders; wadding is different it is moulded in against the lines of the cloth and follows your body shape - I reckon most people around here would seem to favour wadding (some actually prefer nothing) to pads. There - I'm not silly all the time... Just most of the time. if you're looking for a good book to read there's this: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Health-Service- ... 237&sr=8-2
NJS

[Scot]

"By Jeepers, is having a little harmless fun banned?"

By no means! I always find your postings entertaining NJS, share many of your views, and enjoyed your book! I was just thinking of a thread a while ago where some brave soul posted pictures of three bespoke suits made by three different tailors, two by large SR houses. The responses of members were not ones of universal praise and the main issues were to do with fit, not style. Ticket pockets, present or otherwise, would have made no difference! I could see how it would be very dispiriting for someone getting their first bespoke suit to realise that it had all the detail they had asked for but that it just didn't fit very well.

The advice you give to a novice bespoke customer is an excellent start. Now how about what to look for at the first, forward (if he's lucky) and final fittings. What are the safe parameters for the length of trousers, the skirt of the coat, the sleeves? How should the collar fit? What is balance and how should it be judged? How should a coat fit at the shoulders? I realise that to many LL members these are very familiar issues, but not to the novice. There are, I am sure, other resources for those who wish to educate themselves but I am sure there is a place for a summary, perhaps in the form of a checklist for each stage.

[Scot]

Hmm, should have followed the link first! That wasn't the book to which I was referring.

[storeynicholas]

Hmm, should have followed the link first! That wasn't the book to which I was referring.

I did say that I was silly most of the time...Why don't you lead off on the fittings?
NJS

[Costi]

Ticket pockets, present or otherwise, would have made no difference!

How true! We got carried away by this debate on the sex of angels, when in fact any good bespoke suit - marsupial or not - must fit well before everything else. You see, getting a good fit is a lot like conducting an orchestra: NOT so loud, NOT so bland, NOT so quickly, NOT covering the flute, NOT before the violins enter, NOT, NOT, NOT! There is only one way that is right - at least for any given orchestra conductor. It is difficult to explain what a suit that fits well looks like (although it is easy to recognize fit when we see it) and so much easier to notice when clothes DON'T fit and what is wrong with them.
First off, good fit does NOT mean plaster tightness. Don't strive for a second skin suit, it won't look good and it won't feel good. Let the coat and the trousers envelop the body, shape it without clinging to it like a scuba diving suit.
Second, check the balance: the coat should have no tendency to gap open in front or have the quarters cross over too much (for DB), the vents should stay closed and the skirt should not kick out or pull in either in front or behind.
Even if you are athletic, too much waist definition is not desirable in a DB business suit, in my view. Of course, it shouldn't be loose, but the waist needs to be suggested by a gentle taper, rather than emphasized with a heavy hand.
If you like high lapels, they can be as high as in the picture posted earlier (striped dark blue coat), but the peaks should not go over the shoulder in any case.
The lapels' width should be in balance with the width of your shoulders (and your general stature) and with the amount of crossover. Strive for a balanced look, with enough shirt / tie showing.
Your collar should fit snugly even when you move your head forward and never gap. This is particularly important with a DB coat, because you should keep it buttoned while seated, so you may want to check how the collar and lapels behave when you sit down. I usually keep only the waist level button (the highest that can be closed) buttoned while sitting.

I already stated my case on trousers, so I won't go over it again. I prefer no break, especially on trousers with turnups, which means the length you see in the illustrations I posted: the trouser leg ends just above the shoe, barely resting on it, without excess cloth (break) at the instep.
Browse some old posts with pictures where fit issues are addressed, you will get many ideas that will be of help. And also browse the Great Photos section!

[storeynicholas]

After all this good sense, from everyone, can we please get onto what to do at the fittings and then move on to a debate of the question whether only Fallen Angels have sex?
NJS _oooOOO

[Costi]

Why don't you lead off ...?

If both of you smoke at the same time, the dogs will pass out...