Governor Palin, A woman after my own heart

[Frog in Suit]

Dear FiS,

First of all, I do agree with you that the dressing room is not the place to discuss politics. Moreover, I did not intend to offend anybody here and hence accomplished to use terms like "imho" or "imo" in order to underline that it was just my opinion. In case anybody was offended by my words, I apologize for that - it was not my intention.

However, in my mind it is not rude to express one's opinions forcefully among others even if they disagree completely, as long as one does not attack others personally and the opinions are factually justified and supported by arguments. To me, this is especially true for a forum, which, by definition is a place for open discussion.
The LL is not a forum for politics though and so my reaction to cufflink79's post was unfortunate.

But other than that, I'd be interested in political discussions, especially about American politics were people don't just proclaim their views but also support them with facts and arguments - can anybody recommend a forum for that kind of discussion? Thanks in advance!

Dear le.gentleman,

My post was certainly not aimed at you, and you do not need to apologize, as far as I am concerned. Anyone who prefaces his remarks with “I am extremely disappointed about” someone’s views is certainly behaving with perfect diplomacy. Besides you were only responding to something you did not start, in the wrong place, to boot.

You must have felt, as I did, that the unspoken rules of this forum were being rudely violated by the opening, and perhaps other posts. I believe in rational discourse and did not notice any “factually justified” points being made there.

For a debate from opposite positions to be enlightening, I think there has to be mutual trust and respect between the participants. This can be achieved when the debaters know one another well, also maybe in an academic setting, but probably not in an internet forum, or (God help us) on television…I deplore the level of political discourse (if you can call it that) in most “democratic” countries today, including my own.

I do not know of any political internet forum where the participants are knowledgeable, considerate, and interested in more than scoring cheap points over the other side. It is probably too much to hope for, but I may be overly pessimistic (or getting old) .

I suggest we all move on (as sanctimonious politicians caught with their pants down put it, immediately after asking for their family's forgiveness and professing to be "humbled") .

Kind regards,

Frog in Suit

[NCW]

Perhaps we could discuss the election if someone deems it likely that McCain or Obama should attend their inauguration speech appropriately dressed?

[pvpatty]

WHAT?!

Good God I hate journalists.

Perhaps to clarify my position in case it has been misconstrued, the reason I made these remarks were not because I disagreed (or agreed, for that matter) with what this article was saying, but rather, that I was lamenting the fact that the term 'haberdasher' was foreign to a seemingly well educated and worldly person. This is the real tragedy here, and is yet another example of why the LL and the standards of dress it stands for must be preserved now more than ever.

I do not know of any political internet forum where the participants are knowledgeable, considerate, and interested in more than scoring cheap points over the other side. It is probably too much to hope for, but I may be overly pessimistic (or getting old) Wink .

This is another problem. Because no where else (at least that I am aware of) exists on the internet for rational and polite debate to take place, there is a temptation to broaden the scope of the LL to encompass these peripheral matters. However, as FiS has said, I am not sure that this is the place for it. Perhaps members might point us toward some other forums? Or perhaps even set one up?

[Frog in Suit]

This is another problem. Because no where else (at least that I am aware of) exists on the internet for rational and polite debate to take place, there is a temptation to broaden the scope of the LL to encompass these peripheral matters. However, as FiS has said, I am not sure that this is the place for it. Perhaps members might point us toward some other forums? Or perhaps even set one up?

Would I be wrong in suggesting that a blog which has been called by its author "feed the bastards lies" is not likely to fill the need for "rational and polite debate" on the internet ?

Frog in Suit

[pvpatty]

This is another problem. Because no where else (at least that I am aware of) exists on the internet for rational and polite debate to take place, there is a temptation to broaden the scope of the LL to encompass these peripheral matters. However, as FiS has said, I am not sure that this is the place for it. Perhaps members might point us toward some other forums? Or perhaps even set one up?

Would I be wrong in suggesting that a blog which has been called by its author "feed the bastards lies" is not likely to fill the need for "rational and polite debate" on the internet ?

Frog in Suit

Well, I like to apply this motto in general, not just to political matters

Also, if you have a look at my blog you should see where the title comes from; it was the mantra of a spoof newspaper that a friend of mine and I created when in high school.

[le.gentleman]

Perhaps we could discuss the election if someone deems it likely that McCain or Obama should attend their inauguration speech appropriately dressed?

Obama apparently wore a Hart Schaffner Marx suit at the convention - http://www.forbes.com/2008/08/26/obama- ... asuit.html

[Azdak]

Since signing up to the LL some weeks/months ago, I have devoted my energies to reading posts rather than posting them. However, I could not resist chipping in here.

I took the original post to be a comment on the use/misuse of the word “haberdasher” which, as a Brit, I had always taken to mean a retailer of threads and ribbons and crochet hooks and suchlike. Apparently, North American haberdashers can be rather more butch.

Though this thread (no pun intended) took an unfortunate turn somewhere along the line, it seems to me that one need not rule out political debate from the LL altogether (Manton’s book has a very good section on dress in politics), or even religious debate for that matter (the original bible tells of God fashioning garments of skins for the fallen Adam and Eve), with the proviso being that, in the LL, such debate should be relevant to matters of dress and the pursuit of elegance.

In terms of politics, were the world populated with gentlemen (and women) practising true elegance, many of the more divisive issues would not even arise: What gentleman would put a woman in a position where she required an abortion? What gentleman would risk spoiling the line of his suit by insisting upon carrying a handgun, let alone consider using it to shoot someone?

As to NJS’s usually humorous comments about the general decline of standards in the UK, I would be sorry to see these go since it seems such decline, if plotted on a graph, would be directly correlated to the decline in the availability of decent, affordable bespoke tailoring. A good, well-fitting suit will foster self-respect and taking care over one’s appearance is surely a mark of respect for others.

Most of our conventions pertaining to dress, and indeed most of the rules of etiquette in general, exist to help people avoid embarrassing others (I say “most” because I still struggle to understand why one may not eat the perfectly good ends of one’s asparagus). The beauty of the LL is that one may discover and discuss these conventions in an environment where one is unlikely to encounter embarrassment or cause offence. Though, on a cautionary note, one must also be aware that where one’s motivation in observing the rules is to allow one to feel superior to others or to make others uncomfortable, one is missing the point.

Now, who thinks that Britain’s decline might be reversed in part by the establishment of a National Tailoring Service, the “NTS”, along the lines of the NHS? NJS?

Azdak

[storeynicholas]

Azdak - the National Tailoring Service sounds like a good idea - there could be the basic service equivalent to RTW at the bottom, private wing treatment (equivalent to a fully bespoke service, at the top) and, in the middle, amenity suits (the equivalent of MTM). My observations on the state of the nation etc are more social commentary than Political. They normally grow out of someone taking big exception to some small sarcasm and it snowballs. I can't promise that it will never happen again...........
NJS

[Azdak]

I had in mind bespoke at all levels. Back in the days when the NHS was founded, RTW would have been much less prevalent in any event. No, I'm thinking community tailoring with home visits to get nascent bespeakers off to a good start, general tailoring for the majority of us who might encounter the occasional postural niggle, and referrals to consultant tailors for those exhibiting symptoms of more unusual-shapedness. For those who want to pay to go private and avoid the inevitable waiting lists for second or third fittings, Savile Row will be the sartorial equivalent of Harley Street. In fact, why don't we replace the NHS with the NTS altogether? We might feel a bit worse, but we'll be looking a whole lot better.

(Once achieved, the next manifesto commitment will be to introduce a typeface that allows one to denote sarcasm in the way that one might use italics. I think then it might be safe for you to move back, NJS.)

Azdak

[culverwood]

had in mind bespoke at all levels. Back in the days when the NHS was founded, RTW would have been much less prevalent in any event.

AH! The good old days of Burtons and Hepworth etc. I remember going to have my first suit made when I was still at school. A decent MTM from them was much better than what you could get from the school shop. And probably cheaper.

[storeynicholas]

Azdak - you have brought some welcome humour in your first postings and what better antidote to every conceivable ill (apart from 'death and taxes'). There is a good Brummell story from Captain Jesse's biography about the ability of humour to ease tension - when at Eton Brummell came across some fellow pupils who were about to throw a boatman into the river and he diffused the situation by declarinng (I paraphrase) "If you do that, the poor fellow is sure to catch a chill!!" And so they just laughed instead and let him go. Which also tends to support a conclusion, based on other instances in this fascinating book that, for all the ton and insouciance and fecklessness, Brummell was a generous and compassionate man.
NJS

[storeynicholas]

had in mind bespoke at all levels. Back in the days when the NHS was founded, RTW would have been much less prevalent in any event.

AH! The good old days of Burtons and Hepworth etc. I remember going to have my first suit made when I was still at school. A decent MTM from them was much better than what you could get from the school shop. And probably cheaper.

Yes, I remember these too - 50 shilling tailors - I wonder how well their MTM from 1968 would compare with the Savile Row MTMs springing up everywhere in 2008. I have a suspicion that they might compare very favourably indeed - Hepworth's has, I think gone altogether - but isn't Burton's still around - although as a fashion boutique? The first suit made for me was in a little tailor in St Austell - Julian Pascoe - formerly Pascoe and Piper (all, sadly, long gone). It was a light grey flannel - and really rather well done - lasted from the age of 18 to 26, in fairly frequent and regular use.
NJS

[storeynicholas]

Perhaps we could discuss the election if someone deems it likely that McCain or Obama should attend their inauguration speech appropriately dressed?

Despite the soubriquet 'Hatless Jack' JFK did wear morning dress (including topper) to his inauguration - but who was the last President to do so?
NJS

[RWS]

Was it Ronald Reagan? First inauguration (January 20, 1981)?

[storeynicholas]

Was it Ronald Reagan? First inauguration (January 20, 1981)?

That would seem likely - I don't recall the successors having done so. Here is JFK plainly in morning dress, just before his inauguration:





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NJS[/img]