Respect for The Craftsmen...

[Leonard Logsdail]

I agree with Aston

[alden]

I have really only worked seriously with a handful of craftsmen and they were (are) all one man shops. Often they were retired or just working on their own. I never had an issue with fit because these guys were pros, had my pattern down pat and I attended the fittings .If there were slight transgressions on what I had ordered it was extremely rare and I can think of only a couple instances in forty-five years. But I never made one of these “craftsmen” redo a garment for a slight and insignificant error and I never would.

Now, if I were to walk into a classic tailoring business like Huntsman, for example, and ordered a three piece tweed suit and they delivered me an ill fitting, double breasted tweed suit, I would have them remake the suit. Clearly.

But my original quote and the OP’s question, if I am not mistaken, had to do with working with individual craftsmen and not large tailoring businesses. And I think that working with an individual craftsmen has its own particularities. But that statement is nothing more than the resume of my experience and could never be enlarged to be a general rule.

My guys worked their hearts out for me, spent hours more time on my clothes and generally speaking always went the extra mile to make exceptional, one off masterpieces for me. They made nice, well fitting clothes for everyone else. I have the impression they liked making clothes for me. And I am sure they liked making the exceptional for me because of the way I treated them, by the "genuine" respect I showed for them. And this variation on what we used to call "The Golden Rule" has applications in every positive human relationship.

There are so many ups and downs, so many diverse rhythms and truly tragic issues to deal with in life. A person who knows how to live well, who possesses savoir vivre, knows when to object and when to go with the flow. If you make an International issue of everything, you will live poorly and wear yourself out and others around you as well, who instead of being charmed or amused by you, will dread you. Live well, pick your battles wisely and you will have so much energy left over to enjoy and find humor in this crazy short experience we call LIFE. Trust me.

Cheers

[Luca]

Alden makes an interesting point about differentiating between a lone artisan and a slicker, more commercial firm. Especially as his impression is that he always got more work out of the craftsmen than was strictly contracted for to begin with.

I don't read a disagreement here, just different situations and perhaps a different take on the relation ship, equally valid in my opinion.

The older I get, the less intensely certain I become of my opinions and of of what portion of my 'facts' are indeed facts or opinions.

[Ebstein]

Wise words by Alden. Thank you very much! You have a big heart!
I think the main difference is a bigger company like Huntsman does not feel offended personally when a customer demands some kind of compensation. That's different with a small tailoring business where you establish a different level of personal relationship and interact directly with the person spending so much time on sewing your garments by hand. Even if the customer is right, it is normal human behaviour to feel a bit offended after you put so much effort into something. It is not a good idea to annoy your tailor, if you want to keep the good relationship.

[Mark Seitelman]

* * *

There are so many ups and downs, so many diverse rhythms and truly tragic issues to deal with in life. A person who knows how to live well, who possesses savoir vivre, knows when to object and when to go with the flow. If you make an International issue of everything, you will live poorly and wear yourself out and others around you as well, who instead of being charmed or amused by you, will dread you. Live well, pick your battles wisely and you will have so much energy left over to enjoy and find humor in this crazy short experience we call LIFE. Trust me.

Cheers

Well said. Pick your battles.

I come-in with a list of "specs" when ordering a suit. I carefully go-over the specs with the tailor, and I make sure that the tailor notes them. Therefore, there should be no disputes as to assumptions, miscommunications, etc.

If you have a special request, make sure that the tailor knows about it.

If the pants are a big issue, perhaps the tailor will make a new one at a reduced price?

Good luck.

[Melcombe]

Pick your battles.

Good point.

I'd add that a potential customer might also want to reflect on what they want out of a bespoke tailor. Can I suggest that the answer might not be as straightforward as it might first seem. The issue is perhaps most acute when dealing with a tailor who works largely on his (her?) own.

If you want clothes that fit, and in excellent cloth, there are MTM tailors who can do an excellent job at very modest prices (IMHO) for what they do. Some of the travelling - domestically based - tailors here in the UK produce really great garments. They will do exactly, exactly what you ask, and have customer service policies to cope with complaints when they don't. I have a very practical 3-piece from such a business and it gets a lot of wear, and occasional compliments.

Why then would I place all my business with a gentleman of Italian heritage in the English provinces, in his eighties with a business management style straight out of Pickwick Papers?

It's not just that the MTM lacks (but isn't entirely devoid of) what the Welsh call "henaid" (=soul or feeling, but in a sense of connection).

It's mainly that all my garments made by him are made with me in mind, not just a string of measurements, and he applies his considerable skill to cloaking my shortcomings and flattering any residual positives. More than that, in performing his artistry, he exposes a great deal of his own character in the process : he places trust in me in doing so, and I feel content to reciprocate.

As I suspect Mark S might acknowledge, as a lawyer, the best clients are demanding clients - but ones who don't demand consistent perfection - because what they really want are flashes of genius, and they want it when it counts the most.

I will merrily trade a bit of imperfection for the occasion when a much admired colleague confides that she thinks I'm wearing just about the nicest suit she's seen this side of Paris - or the feeling, akin to some kind of invincibility, that whatever the other guy is wearing that day, it isn't going to put my 10 year old pinstripe stalwart in any kind of shade.

When I put on the clothes my tailor has made for me, I draw on my connection with him and feel better for it : my trust in his judgment, and his trust in my capacity to project his artistry. I'm happy with that.

[alden]

Why then would I place all my business with a gentleman of Italian heritage in the English provinces, in his eighties with a business management style straight out of Pickwick Papers?

When I put on the clothes my tailor has made for me, I draw on my connection with him and feel better for it : my trust in his judgment, and his trust in my capacity to project his artistry. I'm happy with that.

Very nicely said.

It's clear you "get it" Melcombe.

Cheers

[ballmouse]

I have made a few items at the same shops, and at least half the time some detail is incorrect or forgotten. However, they're almost all more insignificant than a back pocket. I've chalked it up to part of the risk of custom made clothes. On one hand, you are able to specify fit and details that you may not find in RTW. On the other hand, the custom and unmechanized nature of the work means a higher chance of mistakes.

For the most part, all the benefits of custom have outweighed the minor errors (as noted by my multiple returns). And some of the mistakes have been interesting as they were details I would have never requested on my own.

That said, I wonder if with the internet and all, more communication could take place between tailor and customer as the commission is made. Anyone who works in an office and has been part of a project knows that specs are forgotten, documentation can be misinterpreted, and proof of concepts and demos are important to set expectations. With that said, I leave you with the humorous, but all too realistically true cartoon.

[old henry]

.

[Mark Seitelman]

* * *

As I suspect Mark S might acknowledge, as a lawyer, the best clients are demanding clients - but ones who don't demand consistent perfection - because what they really want are flashes of genius, and they want it when it counts the most.

* * *

Flashes of genius are an additional charge to the client.

[old henry]

I used to love watching Raphael dismantle snooty, “demanding” customers. It was poetry.

[L.deJong]

I remember some funny examples from Scholte (read somewhere)

[alden]

Alden makes an interesting point about differentiating between a lone artisan and a slicker, more commercial firm. Especially as his impression is that he always got more work out of the craftsmen than was strictly contracted for to begin with.

My initial comments concerned individual craftsmen of which there are very few remaining these days. Now these craftsmen may not be Benvenuto Cellini types but let’s just say they have a large dose of pride and self respect (as Ebstein correctly points out.) And if you want to get into their book or stay in their book, you had better show them “genuine” respect. If you do, then their pride and self respect will work to your advantage and they will do amazing things for you. Slight them with pettiness about insignificant things and the wrath of that same pride and self respect will turn against you.

“Tart words make no friends; a spoonful of honey will catch more flies than a gallon of vinegar”

Luca, the saying above is from the American diplomat and statesman Benjamin Franklin (more about him later.) I suspect there is a saying like this in Italian and almost all languages because it describes an essential truth about human nature. I am not sure it’s an opinion or a fact. It’s a truth. If “The Golden Rule” does not resonate with you, maybe the core message of this wise saying summarizes what I have stated above about human relationships in another way.

Benjamin Franklin was a lover, a legendary lover, who left his mark on the fairest of France’s aristocratic ladies in pretty vast numbers. But he is best known in history for his prowess as a diplomat and statesman. And I suspect honey was the secret of both his diplomatic, political and amorous successes. He knew how to motivate people to do the very best for him by letting it be “their idea” to do so.

Is it more fulfilling to kiss or be kissed? The ladies were lined up outside Franklin’s chambers. That’s a great negotiating position.

So it’s up to you. Tart words and gallons of vinegar might serve you well but more often than not it will win you indifference from any “self respecting” tinker, tailor, candlestick maker or fair damsel.

But even an ounce of honey goes a long, long way. Trust me.

Cheers

[alden]

I used to love watching Raphael dismantle snooty, “demanding” customers. It was poetry.

+1

Cheers

[BESPOKE62]

Sorry, it if it matters ENOUGH to the client, and there is no doubt about the detail noted at the time of the commission, then the tailor should be gracious enough to accept they had made an error, even if their error fits beautifully, and offer a solution. .

Resect for the craftsman, should in no way imply that we shouldn’t get what we asked for, paid for and expect; or, in tacit obsequiousness, accept errors. The question is how do we deal with the craftsmen, when the inevitable faux pas arise? It's not what happens to you that matters. It's how you respond to what happens to you that makes a difference.

Here are few additional details to the story. This is an Old Italian Tailor from Milan; among others, he was trained by Caraceni in Rome. He has long been retired, but makes suits in his home for a select group of clients. Every detail is done by hand.

This was not my first pair of trousers from him, as a matter of fact, since we got the pattern dialed in; I have never requested a change.

I only ever worked with craftsman that merited great respect, and whose primary merit was an unwavering commitment to do their very best. I could never ask for more. And sometimes, because tailors are fallible and human, mistakes were made. So I always endeavored to merit their respect by returning that respect in equal measure.

I would tend to agree Mr. Alden. Except for a brief stint in tailoring purgatory, I would say my experience mirrors this. For me, it is all about the relationship.

Craftsmen have dedicated years of their lives to something they love; eventually becoming masters of their chosen craft. Every garment they produce is an example of craftsmanship, displaying their mastery of centuries old techniques.

I am a discerning customer; yet, every craftsman that I have been privilege to work with, has been more demanding of themselves, then any customer ever could be. They refused to compromise on even a single stitch; nothing would leave their shops that did not meet theirs and their client’s approval.

Because of my relationship with them, they always did extra for me and never charged for it; I cannot tell how many times I was told, “Let me show you what I did for you.” The wanted to me to have the absolute best they could produce.

I was a professional photographer for a while; I learned the profession when film (I know some are asking, what is film?) was king. One thing that always stayed with me, every click of the shutter cost you money. It was approximately $2 every click. This quickly helped me focus on quality rather than quantity. In this digital age, photographers capture as many images as they can, hoping the majority will be useful. When I was using film, every shot was purposeful and deliberant and my hope was that everyone was useful. My point, time is money. These guys dedicate 80 plus hours of their lives, for each suit they make for me. They never asked or expected, any remuneration before the job was complete, yet I always paid them something every time I would go for a fitting. Did mistakes occur, yes they did, these guys were octogenarians, but they were always resolved with aplomb. Their mistakes were better than some others finest work. I remember once, a whole new jacket was cut for me because of an error, not because it had to be or that I asked that it be; I was perfectly fine with it. However, the tailor was not. Unbeknownst to me he ordered fabric and re-cut the jacket. He absorbed the cost of the material and spent numerous hours on the remake; and would accept no additional compensation, beyond what was initially agreed upon. To put that into perspective, what he was charging me was already nominal, add to that the cost of the material, the end result was him losing money.

When an Italian invites you into his home, to have a glass of wine; that was from the family’s personal vineyard in Italy, I would say that was a sign of great respect.

Regarding the recent matter; while looking the mirror, I said the trousers fit beautifully but there is something different about these from my other ones. He pulled my pattern, out and said no, they were the same. After a moment, he noticed the difference, and began to apologize profusely. I assured him that it wasn’t anything I couldn’t live with; then coaxed him in the changing then subject. We continued on with the fitting. About an hour after I had left, he called me; again apologized for the error and said that he was so embarrassed that it had happened. He requested that I give him the information on where I had sourced the cloth; he said that he would order more and re-cut the trousers. I thanked him for the gesture, but assured him again that it was not necessary. I told him the trousers fit beautifully and that I could live with pockets on one pair.

It’s about the relationship. He has said several times that he is about ready to call it quits, there are a couple of clients that are making it not so fun anymore. I told him once he decides to have only one or two clients that I want to be number on or number two

A compliment that one old octogenarian, Italian tailor, knocking on the door of being a nonagenarian, gave me when he was no longer able to work, “ Mr. Gordon, non sei mio cliente numero uno, tu sei la mia numero uno gentiluomo”

Respect for the craftsmen equals respect for the client, which results in the best the craftsmen are able to give. But what do I know, apple cider vinegar is the new craze.