Just how honest are London tailors

[lxlloyd]

While there are certain cases in which the quality is not transferrable (Hermes and it's legendary (so much so that i'm not even sure it exists) unique silk printing machinery that is the most detailed (I believe it has the most pigments) in the world....... (no-one knows how it was built and they certainly aren't going to let people take it apart to copy it)) they are few and far between.

I learnt something new today! Will you be able to point me to a link to read more about this? Thank you.

It's for milling the ink colours i believe. The reason for my little disclaimer "so much so that i'm not even sure it exists" is that i have never found anything (aside from the initial claim) to suggest it does EXCEPT for the fact that hermes prints colours that are normally impossible to find in silk dye (you can cheat with digital printing now but that's pixels of CMYK and not a true pigment). I was told about the machinery by a french academic expert in the luxury industry, who cited inside knowledge and never offered proof. But if i had super secret machinery i'm sure i too would keep it secret.

As for the actual process, it involves hand engraving, silk from brazil woven for three months, invisible stitching of rolled hems and much arguing about colours:
http://searchingforstyle.com/2012/04/th ... mes-scarf/

[gegarrenton]

My tailors are pretty honest in all their dealings with me.

[hectorm]

Is A&S targeting the Asian customers specifically? I bought a suit from them (incidentally, I am Chinese), and I am not that happy.

Dear pur_sang
I wrote a few superficial lines regarding A&S marketing strategies which you can read in another thread (R.I.P. Kilgour). More or less what I said was that the marketing and management strategies undertaken by the Rowlands at Anderson & Sheppard have been very successful being consistent for almost 40 years (Anda during the last 10).
They had a very good move to the newer more friendly but still classy shop on Old Burlington. And a smooth move also when they needed more revenue and begun with some RTW trousers and the haberdashery on Clifford St. (the latter attracts lots of women as well).
Regarding the targeting of rich and young Asian customers is not new in the Row (see Henry Poole opening the front stores in China, for instance). In the case of A&S, I don´t know how explicit they want to publicize it (might not be politically correct), but the courting of rich younger clients from Asia who are willing to pay the difference for a still real British house (not of global property) is undeniable.
But as

A firm marketing itself partially on its britishness and its location on the row does have to answer to certain standards

In your case, A&S seem to have failed regarding this.

[Dr T]

Just off to Hong Kong and then Shanghai - will I be ordering a suit there - I dont think so i still believe the best tailoring in the world is in the UK

[dempsy444]

My experience is the tailors are pretty transparent about anything that is not sewn in the UK and those suits contain a lower price point. In fact a lot of the firms that have some bespoke made entirely in the UK and other lines that are cut in the UK and sewn in China proactively explain the difference to protect the value of their higher priced bespoke. Having said that, I do think some of the corporate shops have an "eager-to-sell" front man who can sometimes make you feel like he'll tell you whatever you want to hear. You get the sense they are on the hunt and probably count their kill over a pint with other front man at the end of the day. My experience with the tailors themselves though is they are pretty transparent and take too much pride in their craft to sell hard.

[dempsy444]

regarding China - I think it is less important that something is made in China vs. Italy or London and more important how high the final quality is. In general I think London and Italy have highest population of the best tailors, but i would rather have an expert tailor in China than a average tailor in London. Perhaps at the price point of a certain suit one can't get a very good tailor in London or Italy, but in China they can so it makes sense to have it made there. I think where people get hung up is the idea of "made in china" is judged as a short cut or a cost cut of some kind and when people pay top dollar they feel cheated. I have felt this way rightly or wrongly when buying a high priced designer label like Ralph Lauren made in China. However, I don't feel this way when I have my shirts made by Ascot Chang from China because I like the final quality. You just have to judge the final quality yourself, compare it to the price you paid, and think independently.

[Dr T]

As we seem such a like minded and harmonious group – why don’t we get together for a stroll around Saville Row, we could meet up at Fortum and Masons for a coffee and then have a stroll arould our favourite shops.
Just an idea

[Melcombe]

Ah, honesty - that prized virtue.

Helpful when found in lawyers, less of a sine-qua-non in advertising copywriters, perhaps.

Most jurisdictions have their own definition - of dis-honesty for criminal prosecution purposes. As common law jurisdictions, the UK and US have definitions that move with the times : in the UK, reassuringly, one that lags by 30-50 years...

As the (not so) Good Dr Ghosh discovered - on appeal

... a jury must first of all decide whether according to the ordinary standards of reasonable and honest people what was done was dishonest... If it was dishonest... then the jury must consider whether the defendant himself must have realised that what he was doing was by those standards dishonest (R v Ghosh [1982] EWCA Crim 2)

So applying that objective (stage 1) and subjective (stage 2) test to London tailors : would "reasonable & honest" people think that sending work out (possibly abroad) was a dishonest practice? IMHO probably only if the tailor concerned actively lied about the fact or actively concealed it; but even if they did actively conceal it, would the tailor in the dock realise that what he was doing was 'by those standards' dishonest?

This, I think, is the most telling issue. For every one upright and worthy LL-member customer who walks into their shop, you can easily imagine that your average Savile Row tailor is also inundated with a dozen Russian Oligarchs / pop stars / politicians / media types / financial 'intermediaries'. With that kind of throughput, one can easily imagine that perceptions of what is honest / dishonest might not navigate by the most desirable reference points.

Verdict? : Not guilty. (But don't do it again...)

[Dr T]

Dempsey 444 - is that the Hong Kong shop for your shirts - im flying out tomorrow and would like to visit.

[dempsy444]

Dempsey 444 - is that the Hong Kong shop for your shirts - im flying out tomorrow and would like to visit.

Yes, same house. I have commissioned thru their New York and LA locations
But all the work is done in China.

[Frederic Leighton]

Why must everything be made on the premises, just because it's bespoke?

Was Fontana [hand]cutting his canvasses by himself? would Fontana's canvass be less Fontana's if cut on the premises by Fontana's employee? would it be still Fontana's if cut in China? is there any substantial difference between Fontana's canvass and a damaged canvas? in an age of reproducibility and mechanization, is Photography less 'art' than Painting? These are the questions, if cloths are considered and described as works of art rather than mere protections for the body.

My answers would contradict each other. The book I'm reading gives an interesting definition of 'bespoke' - "the tailoring of an individual by an individual". Sounds pretty simple. And reasonable too.

[gegarrenton]

Why must everything be made on the premises, just because it's bespoke?

Was Fontana [hand]cutting his canvasses by himself? would Fontana's canvass be less Fontana's if cut on the premises by Fontana's employee? would it be still Fontana's if cut in China? is there any substantial difference between Fontana's canvass and a damaged canvas? in an age of reproducibility and mechanization, is Photography less 'art' than Painting? These are the questions, if cloths are considered and described as works of art rather than mere protections for the body.

My answers would contradict each other. The book I'm reading gives an interesting definition of 'bespoke' - "the tailoring of an individual by an individual". Sounds pretty simple. And reasonable too.

How many suits of Savile Row were done by an individual? .000001% tops?

[Dr T]

Dempsy - thanks - they have a shop in Central, Hong Kong - I will visit tomorrow.

[Dr T]

Nearly passed out. I was in a Hong Kong discount Mall - and there was a shop - Gieves and Hawkes of Saville Row, discounting everything by 70%.
The new company thats brought them is sure making an effort to devalue the brand.

[Dr T]

Dempsy - they were very good -thanks for the tip.