reasonably priced soft tailored suit

[jrtjon]

Dear All
Thank you for your varied replies.
I had forgotten about Steed (sorry!) and they seem like a good option.
The reason why I was interested in a little tailor in the Sth of France or Italy is that I am fortunate enough to have to work once a month in Monaco - hence the option of being able to travel. Of course here lies the problem, when playing / working with the big boys / high rollers one needs to look like them! Even though many of them seem to sport Gucci track suits nowadays, they still expect me to look like my profession.
The idea of Sicily is appealing but a little impractical even though my Italian is bearable! I'm still sure there must be a tailor in the Genoa area?

[bond_and_beyond]

I thought I'd also put up the link to Graham Browne's own blog, which has pictures (representative in my opinion) of their work: http://grahambrownebespoke.wordpress.com

BB

[Rowly]

Thanks for the link. I note the use of Islay Tweed for a suit. Is Islay mostly a field wear tweed or is it suitable in texture for Rus in Urbe? Can anyone comment on the merits of Islay tweed, compared with the usual staple diet from Harrisons, Porter& Harding, W.Bill etc?...thanks.

[MTM]

WW Chan can make a very nice, soft, draped coat in the A&S style.

[marburyvmadison]

Hi, I have several suits from GB and my new (SR) tailor has actually said they won't be changing all that much for my new suit with them, fit-wise. Style-wise, it's another matter, naturally.

And, frankly, GB did just fine when I simply asked them to make me a relatively structured suit with a little nip in the waist.

I might submit that some of the pictures you may have seen on the internet (and I've seen a few myself) come from obsessive-compulsive I-gent types who tried to micro-manage too many details on their suits and were shocked when the end result was a bit muddled.

I think GB does solid work and the value is more than fine for the money.

That helps to clarify a little about what I've heard. But take a look at this. Picked this up a couple of days ago when there were critiques about the fit of a coat.

http://www.styleforum.net/t/250290/grah ... st_4691770

One cannot base once judgement of a tailor on one (or a few) online pics (there are similar threads to the one you quote on Huntsman for example, but no one would argue that they do not make a good coat). I personally have had GB make me four suits and two overcoats and I am very happy. A suit starts below GBP 1000 (including VAT) and thus allows the inexperienced bespoke customer to try and fail abit, as compared to paying GBP 3000 ++ for his first suit.

For better pics and a thorough review on the GB experience I refer you the Permanent Style blog by Simon Crompton (start with this one http://www.permanentstyle.co.uk/2009/06 ... -suit.html). As he has repeatedly noted on his blog for years, there is no better value in London for bespoke than GB. The make is a way off SR, but the fit should be more or less equal.

BB

SimonC points out that GB might not be an ideal tailor for soft clothing.

BB,whilst I'd refrain from criticizing a tailor, I do wish to address certain points you've made:

You are right that a suit that starts below 1000 GBP would allow one to 'fail' abit when compared to a suit that costs 3000 GBP, but it must also be said that, in my accumulating experience and conversations with people who have commissioned orders at more reputable institutions, it is far more likely that an established house will address any problems that have arisen, and do their utmost to put things right, rather than abide by the maxim -- caveat emptor.

From what I've read on the site, as well as heard from others, GB does not offer much input during the fitting process. There is another recent thread on this. Please let me know if you'd like me to put it up. The onus is on the (inexperienced) customer to direct the cutter towards problems. As such, it seems that it'd be far better to go to a house where the cutter would be willing to address all issues properly without quibble.

I do believe that by citing Simon's suits as the norm for Graham Brown's work, you're arguably making the very same mistake that you cautioned me against making, ie, one cannot base one's judgement on a few online pictures, lest of all on just Simon's suits. Since Simon has had extensive experience bespeaking coats, and would know how to direct Russell as to his preference. As a research exercise, I tried to pull up other good pictures of GB's work and found nothing. Also, given that a website is, usually, a means of soliciting business, I find it unlikely that a business would put up pictures of ill-fitting clothing, not that I regard the picture on the GB's site as being particularly attractive.

In fact, my pulling up that thread on Styleforum is, if you like, the balancing argument against the generalization that suits from Graham Browne will all fit the commissioner like they do on Simon. Not that they won't, but neither is it certain that it will.

That picture on the other forum is a telling example of the other type of work that they are also capable of when the customer does not know what he wants. N'est-ce pas?

There is also nothing to justify Graham Browne allowing that customer to walk out of his shop looking like that picture on the other forum, whether or not he knows what he wants.

[marburyvmadison]

WW Chan can make a very nice, soft, draped coat in the A&S style.

I've had a good xp with Chan.

[old henry]

The photo of the poor guy on the other forum is the sway back... and you are right.... There is no excuse for letting that suit get even one tenth to where it ended. It has, however, nothing to do with the customer knowing what he wants. Good fit and proper "cutting" regardless of "what the customer wants" is what you trust your tailor to know. Basic fundamentals.. Shame on them and good for you Marbury for saying it. Knowing "what one wants" is neither here nor there. A good fit is the tailors responsibility.It is why he gets up in the morning and why you the customer should go to bed at night, rest assured.. I would be more than happy to send them the sway back manipulation. There is no magic. Quite simple actually. It can be found in any old tailoring book worth its salt.

[alden]

Frank

You hit the nail on the head again.

Thanks

Michael

[bond_and_beyond]

SimonC points out that GB might not be an ideal tailor for soft clothing.

BB,whilst I'd refrain from criticizing a tailor, I do wish to address certain points you've made:

You are right that a suit that starts below 1000 GBP would allow one to 'fail' abit when compared to a suit that costs 3000 GBP, but it must also be said that, in my accumulating experience and conversations with people who have commissioned orders at more reputable institutions, it is far more likely that an established house will address any problems that have arisen, and do their utmost to put things right, rather than abide by the maxim -- caveat emptor.

From what I've read on the site, as well as heard from others, GB does not offer much input during the fitting process. There is another recent thread on this. Please let me know if you'd like me to put it up. The onus is on the (inexperienced) customer to direct the cutter towards problems. As such, it seems that it'd be far better to go to a house where the cutter would be willing to address all issues properly without quibble.

I do believe that by citing Simon's suits as the norm for Graham Brown's work, you're arguably making the very same mistake that you cautioned me against making, ie, one cannot base one's judgement on a few online pictures, lest of all on just Simon's suits. Since Simon has had extensive experience bespeaking coats, and would know how to direct Russell as to his preference. As a research exercise, I tried to pull up other good pictures of GB's work and found nothing. Also, given that a website is, usually, a means of soliciting business, I find it unlikely that a business would put up pictures of ill-fitting clothing, not that I regard the picture on the GB's site as being particularly attractive.

In fact, my pulling up that thread on Styleforum is, if you like, the balancing argument against the generalization that suits from Graham Browne will all fit the commissioner like they do on Simon. Not that they won't, but neither is it certain that it will.

That picture on the other forum is a telling example of the other type of work that they are also capable of when the customer does not know what he wants. N'est-ce pas?

There is also nothing to justify Graham Browne allowing that customer to walk out of his shop looking like that picture on the other forum, whether or not he knows what he wants.

I am not sure what we are arguing about here. In this thread alone we have two loungers, myself and Gilles Deleuze, saying that we in general are happy with the fit of GB's suits. Gilles Deleuze even cites his new SR tailor as saying they won't be making changes to the fit of his suits. In addition I cite Simon Crompton's blog as a supporting argument. Am I saying all their suits are perfect? No, I am just saying that in my experience, one should be able to get a decent fitting suit from them. That I would argue is the normal, regardless of one customer's experience. Please also note that when I was referring to an inexperienced customer being able to "try and fail" abit more with a GBP 1000 suit vs a GBP 3000 I was referring to styling etc, as the fit should be pretty good already on the first suit. I think this point still stands.

You counter the above experiences with one suit from a StyleForum thread that I think we all agree looks horrible, and should not have been let out the door. HOWEVER, I am sure that if the person owning that suit had gone back to GB and complained they would have rectified the issues, possibly even making a new suit for the poor chap. Their customer service has in my experience been very good (they'll redo things till you are happy). So your comment about more "reputable institutions" doing more to correct fit issues, does fall a bit flat in my view. And we have all certainly read on this forum about (including seeing photos) of suits with fit issues also from the "reputable institutions", I believe for instance there is a Huntsman thread covering this.

So my basic point is that your conclusion that Gilles Deleuze good fitting suit is an outlier is upside down, the ill fitting StyleForum suit is the outlier!

And I also gave you the link to the Graham Browne blog which I believe show some well fitting suits, though they might not be in your taste with regards to styling (slim fit etc). As I noted, in my experience, the fit of the suits pictured there are representative of their work.

So I see no reason why the inexperienced customer shouldn't give Graham Browne a try, but as with any bespoke experience it does help to have some view of what it is one wants.

BB

[marburyvmadison]

BB, I don't think the more reputable institutions are likely to let somebody out of the door like that (not that they won't, but less likely), let alone the need to arise for the customer to have to go back to seek amendments, after there was a furor over his poor fitting suit.

The point I'm making about the reputable institutions dealing with issues as they crop up during the fitting, on their initiative, and before the customer is shown the door, is quite different from the customer having to go back to GB to fix his suit following the criticism they received from people online. See italicized bits if you need added clarification. I think you're turning my point on its head, and making it into a straw man.

As for the customer being an outlier, I'd encourage you to search the other forum with Graham Browne and various other permutations to discover what the search terms yield. Experienced GB customers comment that you have to know what you want, because they don't really take imitative to address problems that whilst an inexperienced customer might not notice, a more savvy person who has had a little experience would be able to notice immediately. The poor fitting suit on the customer who posted on the other forum is someone whom I believe falls into the former camp.

In addition, on the Row, it is extremely uncommon for cutters to criticize the customer's suit, being that I went in to a few myself, and asked them to be objective in their criticism on what they'd do differently. They stuck to telling me, well, exactly what they told Giles, and in two different houses, no less. Doesn't say much, does it? Well, probably only that they don't want to put off the prospective customer/or that they're gentlemanly in their etiquette.

A lot more can to be said to your other remarks, but I believe that any continuation of this discussion is quite besides the point.

My intention was to highlight how there are other inexperienced customers (not singular) who have been shortchanged. The fact that this has stirred up so much controversy both here and other forums is a case-in-point.

[bond_and_beyond]

BB, I don't think the more reputable institutions are likely to let somebody out of the door like that (not that they won't, but less likely), let alone the need to arise for the customer to have to go back to seek amendments, after there was a furor over his poor fitting suit.

The point I'm making about the reputable institutions dealing with issues as they crop up during the fitting, and on their initiative, is quite different from the customer having to go back to GB to fix his suit following the criticism they received from people online. See italicized bits if you need added clarification. I think you're turning my point on its head, and making it into a straw man.

As for the customer being an outlier, I'd encourage you to search the other forum with Graham Browne and various other permutations to discover what the search terms yield. Experienced GB customers comment that you have to know what you want, because they don't really take imitative to address problems that whilst an inexperienced customer might not notice, a more savvy person who has had a little experience would be able to notice immediately. The poor fitting suit on the styleforum customer is someone whom I believe falls into the former camp.

In addition, on the Row, it is extremely uncommon for cutters to criticize the customer's suit, being that I went in to a few myself, and asking them to be objective in their criticism on what they'd do differently. Doesn't say much.

A lot more can to be said to your remarks, but I believe that any continuation of this discussion is quite besides the point.

My intention was to highlight how there inexperienced customers (not singular) who have been shortchanged. The fact that this has stirred up so much controversy both here and other forums is a case-in-point.

I don't think you are being very fair in your argumentation here. Whilst no one is denying that there might be some bad examples of GB's work, my point is that in most cases you will get a good fitting suit from them. And that for at least a third of the price of a SR tailor. Are you saying that one should pay at least GBP 2000 more just to eliminate a slight risk of a bad fitting suit (which GB in that case most likely will remedy without cost)?

I agree that they might not give as much guidance as perhaps some other houses do, but in general I think the fit of their suits are good. Thus, it is for the individual customer to determine whether "better guidance" is worth GBP 2000 (at least), or whether he would like to build on the experience of one suit and improve (style wise) for each suit as he can have 3 GB suits for the price of one SR suit (at least).

BB

[marburyvmadison]

I didn't introduce the 1000 GBP v 3000 GBP comparison. I was merely addressing the comparison that was raised.

And I'd like to think I'm not arguing, rather, discussing

[bond_and_beyond]

I didn't introduce the 1000 GBP v 3000 GBP comparison. I was merely addressing the comparison that was raised.

And I'd like to think I'm not arguing, rather, discussing

I am a bit unsure what your conclusion really is? Should one avoid using GB, and thus pay thousands of pounds more, on the off chance that they might make a really bad suit, like that StyleForum guy's?

And I did just do a StyleForum search and from what I could see most commenters are happy with their suits, although the say that you need to be "firm" with the cutters? I even saw that you have commented in recent thread regarding Graham Browne going to Stockholm where you reposted the images you also linked to here, where an experienced GB customer responded:

"I have 8-9 garments from GB. Very happy with these. You do however need to be firm with them; sometimes they do stuff on their own initiative that I don't like. As an example, they made two sports coats for me with roped shoulders (roped shoulders look like crap on me because I’m very tall). They were happy to fix this though. But still, it just shows that you need to be firm. Here are a couple of pointers that might be useful when you deal with GB:

A) Be firm and make sure that they know exactly what you expect, and make sure they write down the exact construction you would like. They do so many different types of styles now and they don't have a house cut per se so make sure you are exact otherwise you may end up with something you don't like.

B) You should be somewhat experienced in MTO and/or bespoke making in order to be able to provide precise instructions. Also, be firm if there is something you do not like with the ready garment, if it does not fit 100% make them change it. Don’t accept that it looks “ok”.

Still, it’s not Savile Row, and you’re paying £1000 and not £3500 for a suit, so some things you do have to expect not to be on the same level, of course. If you want a perfect bespoke experience, you should go to AW Bauer or some other high end bespoke tailor."

http://www.styleforum.net/t/268773/grah ... ockholm/15

And in the same thread, some gents are commenting about GB now doing more soft tailoring (which I have also witnessed myself in their shop, does not look half bad).

And another thread on StyleForum is this one http://www.styleforum.net/t/180131/grah ... -london/60
where the poster posts some photos of what I think is a well fitting coat, and he notes "Before looking at the photos, let me say that i followed most of the tailors advice, and let most of the decisions up to Russel, at Graham Browne's."

So, where I think we disagree is what conclusions we can draw from the available online material regarding GB (in addition I actually am a customer, as are, I noticed, at least two other loungers in this thread (I forgot about simonc in my last post). I think they mostly offer very good value.

BB

[marburyvmadison]

The conclusion is -- The OP decides. What I intended to do here by that post was merely point out that, yes, they can make an adequately well-fitting suit, but no, it doesn't mean that it will turn out like Simon's suit, particularly if the OP does not know what he wants.

I've seen GB suits on a few friends (like I said) who were eager to show me their suits (none of them post on forums), but I was quite appalled by what I saw, and they paid significantly above 1000 pounds to boot, possibly due to the material. Hence, I felt that it should also be brought to light.

*I must admit that those other pictures look decent and would like to iterate that I'm not, by any long shot, personally against GB. It's my objective experience after encountering GB's suits on a few friends. I do give them credit when due -- such as the fit on Crompton. It's also unfortunate that GB had to be used to illustrate and illuminate our discussion.

Not sure what else you mean by re-posting images and stuff.

[bond_and_beyond]

The conclusion is -- The OP decides. What I intended to do here by that post was merely point out that, yes, they can make an adequately well-fitting suit, but no, it doesn't mean that it will turn out like Simon's suit, particularly if the OP does not know what he/she wants. I think that point was amply clear.

*I must admit that those other pictures look decent and would like to iterate that I'm not, by any long shot, against GB. It's unfortunate that they had to be used to illustrate and illuminate our discussion.

Not sure what else you mean by re-posting and stuff.

I think we are going in circles here My point has been that they make a well fitting suit for a very good price. I am not sure that I entirely agree with you that it for a novice bespeaker doesn't mean that it will turn out like Simon's suit. In general the fit should be fairly similar, however some styling items might not be.

And why do you ask about re-posting? You encouraged a search on StyleForum and used that as a supporting argument for there being many bad experiences with GB; I did said search and what I found indicates the opposite of what you argued! Hence the re-posting.

And given that I am in a "re-posting mood", see the following link for another "novice bespeaker" posting photos of his first suit http://www.styleforum.net/t/291084/my-s ... fitting/30

I think that suit is also pretty good for a first bespoke suit (though I see that the vest might be a little tight).

BB