Respect for The Craftsmen...

[andreyb]

+1 to what is said in this thread so far.

But hey! -- let's make it a little bit more interesting and controversial.

Here are a couple of real cases -- happened with me. What your reaction would be?

(As I said, these cases are absolutely real -- but I prefer not to name names.)

Case #1.

Small tailoring firm. First order for a pair of trousers. Result is absolutely smashing -- superb fit and -- who would expect so from Englishmen?! -- stunning needlework. Buttonholes, side adjusters, zip fly -- just beautiful. (I then learned that the trousermaker employs an old Italian lady for finishing -- this explains things...)

Second pair (fitting attended personally, finished pair delivered by post) is a completely different beast... as if they are made in a factory. A lot of seams done by machine, machined buttonholes, side adjusters put on a different position. IMHO, not worth the price I paid for them. Yet the "spec" is fully met -- including right number of pockets (sorry, BESPOKE62, can't resist this... )

The tailoring firm's explanation is that the trousermaker (who is a freelance tailor working somewhere in Soho) employed a different finisher this time.

Case #2.

Same small tailoring firm, an order for two pairs of trousers. (Why, oh why, I always have some issues with trousers?!) This order is put after a year or so from previous one. No fitting, result delivered by post. I found trousers to be definitely too tight -- both in the thigh and waist areas. Not worn a single time and brought them to the firm next time I was in London. Everyone agreed the fit is not up to bespoke standard, but can be easily fixed. And the firm did so! -- and charged me for the privilege -- "on cost" -- which is 60 quids per pair, 120 in total.

What your moral compass says? -- what should have been done by a customer (me) in these cases?

Andrey

[L.deJong]

I don't really know...

But I went with my navy jacket back to the tailor. (photos in one of my topics).
There was a lot 'wrong' fit-wise. Sleeve pitch and back were totally wrong.

The tailor immediately told me he would correct the back. The sleeves were a lot of work so I said to him I will let it slide.
It wasn't bothering me, but I wanted to make sure that he saw it for the next order.
He said it: 'si, okey okey!'

But, when he delivered me the jacket. I noticed that he had nevertheless corrected the sleeve pitch.
He is proud of his work and doesn't want to let me go without a good fit.

I never paid anything for it, while it was certainly a lot of work and would have cost me north of 100 bucks.

I will say that when it comes to fit I will probably not pay for alterations when it's the fault of the tailor.

[Melcombe]

Here are a couple of real cases -- happened with me. What your reaction would be?

Forgive me if I start with a plea for understanding, but I must disclose that I suffer from a peculiar disability : I simply can't enjoy eating in expensive restaurants. It's not the environment – it's what goes on behind the swinging door that I can’t cope with.

When I was very young my parents were restaurateurs and hoteliers in a succession of establishments. I grew up in that environment seeing the business at close quarters, and as a consequence of which I simply cannot enjoy or appreciate the overpriced flimflam that goes into so much of the offering in the hotel trade in pretty much every major city throughout the world.

I find it impossible to appreciate commercial hospitality, however well-staffed, at a cost equivalent to the weekly wage of a schoolteacher for a modest dinner and an overnight stay in town. The reason being that I know what goes into the process (it’s often very poor value) – and experience has demonstrated that I generally have a better experience almost in inverse proportion to the cost, when staying at tiny family-run establishments.

I think that the same applies in many ways to the "Savile Row experience". As a young graduate working in London, my girlfriend worked for a now defunct bespoke saddlers (then holding several Royal Warrants) and dealing with many of the craftsmen and women who were often part of the Savile Row outworker community as well. Seeing how that business operated, I immediately recognised many of the less attractive processes that I'd seen in the restaurant business – and still see, and still try to avoid.

For that reason, I could also never enjoy the experience of paying the price of a decent second-hand car to buy a 2-piece suit on the Row, unless I was convinced that all of the work was being done in-house – and even then, I would have to begrudge that proportion the cost related to maintaining premises in a phenomenally expensive retail frontage.

I would much rather give my money to someone self-employed working in appropriate premises where every element concentrates on the value of what is being produced and not creating some "customer service experience".

I'm afraid that even if I reached the point that money was no object, the principle of paying hard cash for flimflam would never appeal. The fact that such flimflam often comes with highly variable service quality simply confirms me in my view. It always pains me to hear that Savile Row reality falls short of reputation in an iconic business employing so many very admirable people, but the temptation to cut corners is just part of human frailty.

When my tailor finally retires, I shall be hunting out a self-employed craftsman (in no kind of a rush) and look forward to, hopefully, years of refining and improving communication and understanding – all in the total absence of…



… flimflam.

[couch]

Melcombe, I sympthasize with your point of view. Here's hoping when your tailor retires, you can find a self-employed craftsman young enough to begin a relationship with. With the exception, perhaps, of Matthew Deboise, I think the majority of serious young tailors in England receive their tailoring training at firms on the Row, which are large enough to be able to afford training schemes and experience to them (and of course, Edwin and Griff were both trained on the Row). Part of the overhead of these firms consists in the cost of this time away from direct concentration "on the value of what is being produced" for you in favor of the value of what is being produced for future customers of the craft. While many young tailors now have some kind of college preparation, it is no substitute for direct observation and hands-on practice making for large numbers of customers with differing figurations.

It may be there are old masters elsewhere, of the kind that gave Old Henry such an admirable grounding, but not many, I suspect. It says something about supply and demand that Joe Genuardi, after barely five years apprenticing to Joseph Centofanti, could step straight into the head tailor position for Martin Greenfield and open his own bespoke business five years later. And maestro Centofanti is gone.

There's an old anecdote of Charles Proteus Steinmetz, the mathematician and electrical engineer responsible for the practical development of alternating current, about an incident when he was working late in his career for General Electric. He was called by a power plant to troubleshoot a malfunctioning generator that had had to be shut down, so the utility was losing money by the hour and customers were suffering from brown-outs and outages. Steinmetz, who suffered from a hunchback, dwarfism, and hip dysplasia, asked for the generator to be restarted. He then climbed a ladder up to the top of the massive generator housing, asked for a short metal rod, held it to his ear, and placed the other end at various places on the housing while he listened. He then pulled a pencil from his jacket pocket and marked an X on the housing, instructed the manager to remove a certain weight of metal from the armature under the X, and left. The plant's staff did so and smooth operation was restored. A couple of days later the utility received a bill for $20,000 (in c.1920 dollars). The plant manager was aghast and complained to Steinmetz, "but you were only here ten minutes!" To which Steinmetz calmly replied, "You're not paying me for the ten minutes. Those are free. You're paying me for the forty years it took me to learn where to put the X."

[old henry]

Great story

[Ebstein]

Seems to me the customer-tailor-relationship resembles either a patient-shrink-relationship or an arranged marriage. But love will come with time they say.

[Simon]

I once had a pair of trousers made which emerged without a change pocket in the waistband. I mentioned it gently, and the tailor was very apologetic - either I could take them away then, or pick them up in another fortnight and they would resolve the issue.

As others have said, it’s mostly a matter of respect - if the client makes an undue fuss, it can only be human nature that the tailor remedies the issue somewhat grudgingly.

I am also reminded of the quote from Richard Sachs, the esteemed bicycle frame builder, that “Imperfection is perfection” - in his case the telltale file marks that remain on the steel tubing, in our case the small idiosyncrasies of the garment or the subtle variation of hand topstitching. Both make the garment richer, emotionally or aesthetically.

[old henry]

That’s great Simon. So true. Charm.
If imperfection is perfection then the coat I’m making now is beyond perfection