First bespoke suit: Firenze via Ōsaka

[BirdofSydney]

Gents,

It’s been some 13 years that I’ve been a member of this forum, and I am pleased to say that I am at last crossing the final frontier. Herewith, a short(ish) account of the ongoing process of commissioning my first bespoke suit.

The beginning

I’ve spent the last decade wearing Neapolitan suiting interpreted through Japanese eyes – suits from Osaka-based Ring Jacket – and thus, it seems fitting that I found myself back in Osaka last week at the workshop of Coccinella.

Chujo-san (and his assistant Sugimoto-san) cut in a Florentine style, which suits me very well: to my eye it maintains most of the proportions and the pleasing shape of the Neapolitan style, but is just a little firmer and cleaner, at least relative to the more fashionable exponents of Naples. I was particularly intrigued by the darting of the coat, placed not in the front but rather diagonally under the arm.

The plan

I was due to arrive in Osaka on Tuesday evening, ahead of a fitting late Wednesday, which would have allowed most of the day to turn over in my mind every detail of the suit. Although I had a solid idea of what I wanted, and planned to defer to the tailor on questions of fit and proportion, there were nonetheless myriad details that I wanted to think through, as well as spending some more time researching cloth to ensure that I made the best possible choice.

A fine plan, spoiled only by the breaking news that Typhoon Jebi was due to make landfall on Wednesday morning in the Kansai region. Chujo-san emailed to warn me, and graciously suggested that we bring forward my appointment to Tuesday night, and naturally I accepted.

But then panic set in: Mother Nature had robbed me of my planning day, I would have to ‘fly on instruments’. Happily, the last 13 years here have taught me a great deal, but nonetheless I found myself frantically reading over threads on the Shinkansen like a high schooler cramming for a test.

The shop

I needn’t have worried. I felt at home the moment that I stepped into the shop and saw Coccinella’s work close up. Three mannequins in the entrance held Chujo-san’s own well-worn coats, and they were simply spectacular. I knew that, whatever happened, I was in good hands.

A blog post I read described the man himself as looking more like a jazz musician than a tailor, and indeed the scene was set by a jazz soundtrack on the stereo. The shop was just as it should be: not a designer space but messy, chaotic and cosy.

The cloth

Cloth selection was the part of the experience which I found by far the most intimidating. Coccinella has an extensive range of books but keeps little cloth on hand, so I knew that I would be selecting from swatches rather than having the luxury of looking at lengths. At least a few times, I’ve fallen in love with a suit on the rack only to find that it looks awful when I tried it on, so the idea of judging from a few square inches filled me with dread.

I knew that I wanted English cloth, no less than 12oz, but preferably not too much more. It needed to have enough weight to drape properly and stand up to wear, but not so much that it would be unwearable in the hotter Australian months.

I had my heart set on a dark navy with a reasonably broad, soft chalkstripe, to replace an old suit (in Zegna fabric, beautiful but not durable) which had finally bitten the dust this winter. I would err on the side of caution, choosing the most subtle option that fit my bill in the hope it would translate well on a larger scale.

I was presented with a range of options, but none of them were quite right. Some were too blue, some too black. Some had stripes too close together, others had stripes that were too bold. In the end, I got down to one by Holland & Sherry, and another by Martin Sons & Co (with which I was unfamiliar). Erring on the side of caution, I opted for the former, which was the nicer, subtler cloth albeit with stripes too closely placed for my liking and a ground which was even darker than I wanted.

The fitting

The fitting itself went largely as expected. I wore my favourite Ring Jacket suit to give some indication of what I like, and was pained (but not surprised) to be told that it’s getting a bit tight on me.

For the coat, we agreed on a 3-roll-2, with barchetta chest pocket and jetted side pockets. The gorge will be a little higher than Coccinella’s standard cut, and the lapel will sit roughly parallel with my (very) sloped shoulders. There will be minimal padding, and a clean, lightly roped sleevehead. Half-lining should assist in maximising wearability in the warmer months. I had initially contemplated a waistcoat, but it would have increased the cost by about 25%, and I decided to save my pennies for the next commission instead.

The trousers will have braces buttons, and I didn’t think that side-tabs were necessary: I associate them with RTW intended to be worn with neither belt nor braces (though please tell me if I have it wrong here). Chujo-san proposed two pleats, we agreed on one for the baste fitting, but I will attempt to persuade him to use a dart instead (on which, I will post some questions separately in the trousers thread). He recommended straight, rather than angled pockets, and while I’m not quite sure why, I was happy to go with the recommendation. Although I never use my rear pockets, I still felt that trousers would look a bit odd without, so we decided to place one on the right side, jetted with no button.

A happy ending

As the fitting was drawing to a close, I felt good about the process, but still unsatisfied with my cloth selection. I didn’t dislike it, but at bespoke prices (and Coccinella is at the more reasonable end of the scale), having a suit that I didn’t dislike wasn’t quite enough!

And just then, I spotted one book still on there shelf which hadn’t been presented to me. Surely enough, Dugdale Bros had made the cloth of my dreams: 12oz worsted, dark but with a beautiful depth of colour under the light, with soft, grey stripes about an inch apart.

I learned that the reason that the book hadn’t been shown to me is that it was anticipated that it might take longer to get the cloth in, which would have required a change to our schedule and hence my travel plans. But, I had kept my plans loose enough to accomodate some variation, and so happily I am heading in for my fitting tomorrow.

I shall be sure to take some pictures this time. Wish me luck!

[Concordia]

Sounds like a good thing all around.

Ring jackets have a nice look about them. If that is the language they're speaking, then you stand a good chance of winding up with something you like.

[old henry]

A great adventure. Dougdale is very good cloth.

[mimile]

You can never go wrong with Dugdale. I guess you chose from their Royal Classic books. It is a gem.

[L.deJong]

You can never go wrong with Dugdale. I guess you chose from their Royal Classic books. It is a gem.

I have 5 metre of Royal Classic or is it English and Town classics. Anyway nice sturdy cloth.

[old henry]

Yes , sturdy is the word.

[BirdofSydney]

Gents,

A quick picture ahead of a full write-up tomorrow.

https://scontent-nrt1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/ ... e=5CCAF74A

https://scontent-nrt1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/ ... e=5CCBEB97

I am worried that the coat is a little top-heavy as a result of the lapel width and low button stance. I suspect it may be a result of me asking to bring up the front a little following the baste fitting: ie, if the coat is slightly shorter but the button position remained the same rather than shifting as well.

I'd be grateful for any comments!

Best,

Bird

[couch]

The photo isn't showing up for me . . . .

[BirdofSydney]

Apologies Couch, technology is not my forte. That link should work, however...

[couch]

Thanks, the links work fine. Hard to judge without seeing it on you and how it works with your figuration.

On the hanger, the button point does look a bit low for the width of the lapel and how rapidly the quarters sweep open. But what counts is how it looks on you, and that could give quite a different impression.

[BirdofSydney]

Dear Couch, thank you for the feedback! Here’s a fit pic.



Please disregard the trousers: they were too short so the seams were ripped and pinned, over a borrowed pair of try-on shoes (which were in the shop from a bespoke shoemaker’s recent visit). They should be fine once finished, although there’s a little too much material around the crotch for my liking, and the rise is a bit higher than it needs to be.

The coat, on the other hand, seems to be out of proportion. I am now fairly certain that when I asked the front to be shortened following the baste fitting, the pocket position, lapel and button point were not also adjusted, which is disappointing. By my reckoning, the middle button needs to be about an inch higher.

The overall effect me look somewhat broad and tubby: I am actually 5’8” and about 75kg.

I have emailed and asked if there is any scope to lengthen the front: although it will be longer than I would prefer, at least it will be in proportion.

My final question is about sleeve length. I think they could stand to be just a fraction longer: maybe a quarter inch. Hard to tell from the picture, but as I have short arms I tend to prefer allowing just the barest flash of cuff. Particularly if the body is to be lengthened, I’m inclined to do the same with the sleeves.

[couch]

These things are a matter of preference, of course, but I think you're on the right track to lengthen the jacket (for this and future commissions). If I'm seeing your leg length and the position of the trouser fork correctly, it seems to me the button point itself is about right as judged by your overall height and apparent waist level, but the jacket is too short below the button point. I defer to Old Henry and our experts, but it seems to me that contributing to any "tubby" effect is the way the lapel roll does not begin gently above the center button but rather the lapel seems to "pull" directly to the button so the V of the lapel line sags open a bit above the button and on either side. Photos can be deceptive, but it almost looks as if the upper chest is a little tight, restricting its movement, so that when the fronts are pulled closed to button, the lapel line breaks below the chest. Note the way the stripes converge below the button rather than curving back out to fall relatively straight down. The shoulders appear nicely made; perhaps in future you might consider a slightly wider point-to-point measure, which would naturally make the waist area appear slimmer in relation. If the shirt cuff length in this picture is normal for you, then I agree that lengthening the sleeve a quarter inch or so would be beneficial.

[old henry]

Demand your money back. Nobody involved in the making of this suit has a clue. I promise you. You are just starting out and you don’t realize. It is beyond repair. Walk away and find someone else. Anyone else. It is a disaster from A to Z. Pants are terrible. This is tough love , Pal. Run away.

[alden]

HI Bird

I worked on the photo a bit so we could see you a bit better.

bmakQPznTki2n8v7l7q3xQ_thumb_951 by The London Lounge, on Flickr

The overall impression of this suit is that you are wearing someone else's clothes, maybe your kid brother's. The suit just looks small on you just about everywhere. And clothes that don't fit and are too small make one look "tubby."

Neapolitan tailors love to cut narrow shoulders and silhouettes. If their suits were girls they would be Twiggy, 32-32-32. We like 36-24-36 as a strict minimum.

So starting from the top, I would like to see more shoulder width. A wider shoulder allows us to give you a V shape by creating a gentle taper to the waist. V is Very good for men, and it helps solve the Tubby effect.

As regards the button point it is very hard to tell because the coat is so short. It might be fine. But my hunch says it could go a bit higher because Neapolitans normally cut fastening points 1/2" too low thinking that the longer lapel line creates length and slims the line. But the narrow shoulder has obviated the chance for any line, so the longer lapels, in this instance, just draw attention to the short jacket and unnecessary fullness that results from the lack of shape.

The Neapolitans also cut a lapel that starts razor thin just above the fastening point and stays thin for about 15 cms whereupon it suddenly gathers momentum and flowers into an ultra wide lapel at the notch. Looks like they have given you this lapel design and to my eye, it gives a Baroque, Italianate and Neapolitanish look to the coat. A good lapel is imposing right from the get go, right at the fastening point, and then increases slowly and elegantly up to a good width at the notch. There are some beautiful examples of lapels all over the LL. Study them.

I think on a first fitting with a new tailor it is best to "say nothing and look stupid" than give instructions you might later regret. Let the tailor make his coat for you and then you have negotiating impetus on your side.

The ship on this suit has sailed. It's very difficult to lengthen a coat and shoulders and that is what you would need to do among other things to make this suit fit you.

Frankly, given your look, I would like to see you in a more subtle and neutral English/American cut that FITS YOU.

I wish I had better comments for you Bird but I have to agree with Old Henry, there is not a lot of good here.

Cheers

[old henry]

Run for your sartorial life.