Shirt Collar Question, The Inverted Vee

[rodes]

I prefer the four-in-hand knot where no collar shows above the knot and the collar points form a perfectly inverted vee with no tie space. Try as I may over the years, I cannot seem to get it. Shouldn't be that hard. I see it all the time on tv personalities who's shirts are obviously not bespoke. I have tried all sorts of tactics, looser collar, tighter, more spread, slightly overlapping. Any thoughts ?

[Concordia]

Supposedly, President Reagan learned from his Hollywood days to leave off his top shirt button. That way, when he tightened his tie, he always got perfect closure of the collar, no matter his weight or the age of his shirt.

[ggreen]

Rodes,

Let's leave TV personalities alone for a moment. Who knows how they glue, nail or otherwise permanently attach ties to shirts.
Shirt collar and tie construction have a lot to do with keeping the two together.
For a tie. If you think of a knot as approximating a cone, this cone has to have good radius at the base to fill in the space and cover the band. A slightly spongy and light in weight interlining seems to help.
For a shirt. Good interlinings here are absolutely key. Quality interlinings have a good spring to them just like high quality cloth. A limp interlining or one that's unnecessarily thick and heavy doesn't keep tie and collar together well.

Greg

[pur_sang]

I prefer the four-in-hand knot where no collar shows above the knot and the collar points form a perfectly inverted vee with no tie space. Try as I may over the years, I cannot seem to get it. Shouldn't be that hard. I see it all the time on tv personalities who's shirts are obviously not bespoke. I have tried all sorts of tactics, looser collar, tighter, more spread, slightly overlapping. Any thoughts ?

I personally don't button the top button when I wear a tie, seems to work for me.

In regards to getting the perfect V or whatever you fancy, Charvet does this trick (some say it's a marketing gimmick) of cutting the collar when you have your shirt on, I guess that is something you can try with your tailor. Incidentally, totally unaware of it at the time, my Charvet shirt forms a perfect X, the inverted V perfectly mirrors the top V that wraps my neck, but now this is how I like my collars.

[belimad]

Could anyone post a picture please of what they consider the perfect V?

[ggreen]

Belimad,

Not sure anyone has ever seen a perfect V . But in terms of not being able to see the shirt collar band, if you google Antonio Liverano I think you will see a good example. His tie knot is full, well proportioned and always covers the collar band well.

Greg

[rodes]

These are good and handy suggestions. I tried the Reagan method and was astounded that it seemed to work. (Just one more of many things to admire about the man, although perhaps, one of the least.) Then I tried the Reagan method with a wool Tartan tie and one of my shirts that has the most substantial collar lining and it worked all the better. Thank you gentleman. The question is answered.
I realize that some very stylish men have advised a shirt made with generous tie space, and I will admit that this sets the tie better. My own personal aesthetic is for the inverted vee look. I just like it.

[belimad]

This?

[ggreen]

This for sure. The interesting thing is that this shirt does not have a large tie space. Maybe a 1/4 at the most. Italians cut their collar band in the way that forces a curve on the leaf. The leaf is "not flat" as you can see in the picture above. Effectively they give the the tie it's space under the curving leafs without spacing the leafs apart too far at the band.

Greg

[alden]

Greg

The Italians often cut the collar as you say, but there is much more than 1/4" tie space in Antonio's collar. I have seen them first hand.

I would be hard pressed to post a picture of an inverted V collar that looks good (to me), because I have never seen one, and I've been looking for quite a few decades.

Cheers

[couch]

Probably obvious, and discussed here before, but if you have anything other than a very lightly lined or unlined tie, it will be much harder to keep the knot in position on a shirt without tie space if the front collar stand is not relatively tall. In the photo of Sr. Liverano, notice how much collar band is visible below the upper corners of the knot. Many RTW shirts, even from prestigious makers, are cut with bands that taper to a very shallow height in front. Not buttoning the collar button allows the tie to pull up to the top of the band, which as noted can help avoid band showing above the knot, but depending on the knot it can also cause the lower part of the bands to splay outward and make the placket below it look sloppy or even gap. This is less likely if the tie and knot are substantial enough to compress the entire collar band.