Tailored Stories: An Oral History of Savile Row

[Frans]

The tailor in the Vimeo is cutting the vest cross grain. Very interesting.
I'm still learning things.

Thank you Frank, interesting to hear

Actually, the MoMa in NY recently have produced a much better video on bespoke tailoring.
They follow the process at Anderson & Sheppard's. More than 20 minutes of viewing pleasure.

How to make a Savile Row suit, part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-Ghh-_CJEo
How to make a Savile Row suit, part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jukxImvFdWQ

I guess we're still waiting for part 3 - the finished suit.

[old henry]

How many of you think the finished product is satisfactory ? Raise your hands.
How much does this A & S suits cost ?
the customer has a sway back which calls for a shorter back and longer front. It's a bit more complicated than that. After all of those measurements they missed it. That's why the front is lifting and there is a pulling at the seat and the back of the sleeve is gathering.
And with this new short coat style I'd give him nickers and a lunch box. The once great A & S

[alden]

Watching those videos made me think of another legendary trip to English tailors:

[old henry]

I do believe I know the video, Sir. And I have posted it on Facebook.

[hectorm]

How much does this A & S suits cost ?

US residents do not pay value added tax, and at the relatively benign current exchange rate, a basic 2 pc. Anderson & Sheppard suit would be around $5000.
Note: IMO, the DB suit worn by Mr. Leon Powell himself does not fit him better than would a suit by Suit Supply. Maybe he has gained some significant weight recently but the jacket looks very tight all over and pulls uncomfortably. The soft shoulders, shown better in the other Savile Row video, are nice though.

[old henry]

My bullshit detectors went off throughout the whole A&S video. But not once during The Oral Tailor History video. And your right. The tailor taking all of the ridiculous measurements ( just for show and razzle dazzle I promise you ) looks like a sausage. And after all of those ridiculous measurements just for show the balance of the coat is way off causing a series of ills.

[old henry]

A guy on Facebook just figured it out for me. He observed that the Savile row houses have substituted Luxury for craftsmanship.

[Frans]

Watching those videos made me think of another legendary trip to English tailors

A great scene that I had not seen before, thank you.

Frank, we're still waiting for part 3, the finished suit

Re: Luxury substituted for craftsmanship, aren't there 2 movements going on at the same time?

One being oriented towards more craftsmanship and young people getting passionate about being a tailor.
Hence the special programme by the SR bespoke association for apprenticeships.

The other international luxury groups trying to get hold of SR and its businesses because they're a good brand. I think Welsh & Jefferies asked for kind of protection of the whole street some time ago, because rents keep going up.

[msefton9]

I hesitate to say that I am in the middle of my first experience with Henry Poole right now. I haven't had any clothes made for me for quite a few years, and never before at Poole's, only at A&S. (It is the problem with having three small children. You end up ignoring Lear's advice to reason not the need, and tend to forget that even our basest beggars are in the poorest thing superfluous.) But, by undeserved good luck, I am being made a Queen's Counsel in February, and there is a particular form of kit that I now have to have to wear in court. You can get silk's jackets (as they call them) off the peg at Ede & Ravenscroft - they are a sort of cross between a vest and a ceremonial court coat. But the Ede & Ravenscroft stuff looks pretty awful. So I tooled off instead to Poole's, with its livery department, to get one made properly. They seem to be taking a lot of care over it. But what do I know? I will offer up some photographs if anyone is interested. But only if Old Henry promises to be kind about their efforts. It has no lapels, so there will be nothing to offend on that front. It will, however, have scalloped pockets, gauntlet cuffs, and other such splendours.

[alden]

But what do I know? I will offer up some photographs if anyone is interested. But only if Old Henry promises to be kind about their efforts.

Congratulations on your appointment.

I am sure Poole will make you a perfectly adequate garment. The more industrial processes decried by Old Henry will effect the result but I don't think there are more than a few thousand men in Europe anymore with eyes trained well enough to see the flaws and imagine what might have been.

I think we try to be kind, whenever possible, around here, but we don't or shouldn't let form reduce substance to nil. So we tell you the truth. Something, by the way, that no one else, not even your tailor, unless he is the right sort, will tell you. We tell you the truth because we sincerely want you to look your best. You are paying your tailor for that, aren't you? And we cost you how much? You're getting 2 cents worth at a big discount.

It used to bother me when I saw young men shell out hard earned money and look poorly. I'd close my eyes and imagine what they could be. I dressed them in my mind, the way they should have been dressed by a good tailor. And they invariably looked splendid. Its truly a useless exercise. A fool and his money is parted, nothing to be done.

Cheers

[alden]

Re: Luxury substituted for craftsmanship, aren't there 2 movements going on at the same time?
One being oriented towards more craftsmanship and young people getting passionate about being a tailor.
Hence the special programme by the SR bespoke association for apprenticeships.
The other international luxury groups trying to get hold of SR and its businesses because they're a good brand. I think Welsh & Jefferies asked for kind of protection of the whole street some time ago, because rents keep going up.

The kind of protection SR needs does not come from government. SR needs to be uncompromising. They need to stick to their guns, to the craft handed down and perfected over generations. And they need to charge for it! A true heritage SR suit, cut and sewn according to the unbending rules of the craft, in the $8-10K range.

Instead, they are trying to absorb their additional fixed costs, keeping prices stable and reducing quality by using Industrial methods. This is the way to a slow death. Maybe not so slow, but painful.

Luxury is craft's cancer. Ancient houses, gutted of their substance, become mall brands. Huntsman is just one example.

[Melcombe]

I think we try to be kind, whenever possible, around here, but we don't or shouldn't let form reduce substance to nil. So we tell you the truth. Something, by the way, that no one else, not even your tailor, unless he is the right sort, will tell you. We tell you the truth because we sincerely want you to look your best. You are paying your tailor for that, aren't you? And we cost you how much? You're getting 2 cents worth at a big discount.

That's why I love this place.

I'm grateful for the various feedback I've been given - and it's certainly helped refine the next project.

I'm also conscious that different folk pursue different objectives through bespoke, and I readily agree that the art and technique that goes into the very best hand-crafted items is exquisite.

For my part, I feel there is a point of diminishing returns (and that point is probably different for everyone) with bespoke. While I value the individuality of my wardrobe and suspect that many of my clothes are truly unique combinations of design & materials, I can't get too excited about some of the finer detail to the point that I would pay the huge uplift in cost to obtain them.

I should also say that cost is an issue to me, and I suspect that stems largely from a modest childhood. My parents lived through the war and waste or profligacy was certainly a sin in their book. I happily live by the maxim of buy quality and look after it, but in my view, cost and value are quite different matters. I can sort of see how suits cost >£5k having regard to craftsman's wage and London overheads, but I have other calls on my income (well, until the kid leaves home / gets a job etc) and on my scale of perception such a purchase would be an extravagance.

My suits cost considerably less than they would cost on the "Row" made in the same cloth and, largely, the same construction. My tailor's rent is tiny and I don't suppose he has ever advertised in his life. He doesn't even put his own label on a garment - if I bring him cloth that has a label tacked onto the bundle, he'll sew that into the lining without hesitation, but never his own name.

Much more important to me is that my tailor is a one-man-band. He does everything - and knows comprehensively who he is doing it for; I really feel like its a partnership and every project just seems to be better than the last. Since everything he does seems excellent value to me, I have also never shied away from a little experimentation - and that hasn't always worked as hoped (but never a disaster. Yet!)

I'd be less content to experiment if those trousers / that coat were costing me many times more than I'm used to paying. I'd also be less keen to wear such a garment in an 'everyday' situation for fear of damaging it - I love the fact that my clothes fit very comfortably, and couldn't countenance buying a suit that didn't get worn. I know folk who collect watches that live in the safe. Not my idea of fun.

[old henry]

No luxury. Just a charming Benchmade suit, right Melcombe ? Good for you.

I took all day today to make the pockets on a good customer's suit.
When I was finished I noticed the stripe on the breast pocket didn't line up nicely.
I took an hour and a half to re do it.

[Melcombe]

I took all day today to make the pockets on a good customer's suit.

Frank,

I'd expect nothing less from you.

Please don't take my comments as anything of a criticism (they're certainly not meant as such) - I just have a bit of an issue with the way Savile Row operates. At one level, it is a tremendous brand, but it also invites a commercialisation that takes a particular line, and one that I don't find at all attractive. Occasionally this style of commercialisation breaks into clear view (Huntsman) and it just isn't what I'm after. Im concerned however that in turn this puts pressure on "real" (in my estimation) tailors on the Row to then charge silly money for want of being underestimated, and to boost their output by undisclosed use of outworkers.

My limited insight into these sorts of operations dates from some years ago when my then fiancée worked for a saddlers off Bond Street that also provided tailoring and boot-making through associated businesses, (and who also sold directly to the public). I shall not comment on their output since they are still in business, but the now defunct saddlers did sell bespoke saddlery - the very finest of its type and with a price that, tbh, only royalty didn't wince at. In reality, the work was undertaken by craftsmen (and not a few craftswomen) being paid very modestly, in London and Walsall (the epicentre of the true saddler's craft) some employed, others as subcontractors.

What struck me was that you could go directly to many of these tiny manufacturers and get the very same item at a fraction of the price. Well that's great so far as it goes in financial terms, but saving money isn't the primary issue here.

Beyond the price consideration, what I couldn't understand was that had you bought the article in London W1 (with an extra zero on the price tag, no kidding) you had no connection with the craftsman nor he/she with you - just a very personable & knowledgeable sales assistant in a warm & well carpeted shop next to a spiffing art gallery.

Why - why - would anyone miss out on the tremendous pleasure of knowing that what you were sitting on / wearing was made for you, and you alone, by someone who knew you - had looked you in the eye, shared a cup of tea and passed the time of day with you - and cared for your satisfaction with the product, not out of some customer care programme handbook, but as a matter of personal pride.

That's what bespoke implies in my understanding - so forgive my jaundiced view of SR - but I'll travel to the ends of the earth to find a tailor who makes it all himself, and will only deal with people who attend in person, phone switched off, in no kind of rush, behave politely, are welcoming of advice, and are appreciative of what they are buying. I'm really lucky that my chap is local to me, but when he really does retire, I shall be up a gum tree.

David

PS - On another topic, what also concerns me lately is that my daughter is dating a young gentleman who hails from the banks of the Hudson in upstate NY. Should this lead to a permanent relationship and resulting ceremonials, I've a nasty feeling I'm going to end up having to take him to get a proper suit. Are there any decent tailors in that neck of the woods?

[old henry]

The experience is just a side note. Good..bad. I never set out to give my customers a good experience. I don't care if they enjoy it or not. But they do. My shop is a mess. I swear my head off. I argue style and some things I will not do. It's my suit. It's my craft. It's my life goes into it. You're wearing my suit. But customers do enjoy it because they are a direct part of the suit. They are in the suit they wear. They are as much a part as I am. We both do our parts. It's all about the final work. Some people ( very, very, very few ) understand the charm of a handmade suit and can spot it a mile away. Some like nonsense. In case you cannot tell David I am agreeing with you %100.