New English Bespoke Shirtmaker: Wil Whiting

"The brute covers himself, the rich man and the fop adorn themselves, the elegant man dresses!"

-Honore de Balzac

bond_and_beyond
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Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:10 pm

alden wrote:The link on the first picture is OK. I can see it. Try refreshing.

Yes, the buttonholes are placed differently when there is tie space provided for in the collar.

My shirts have between 1.5-2.5 cms tie space. The amount you will choose will be a function of the knot size you wear and on the size of the collar overall.

Cheers
Just a question of how to measure this. Set out below are the measurements of my Budd collar. Am I measuring this correctly?

ImageUntitled by Bond Beyond, on Flickr

Collar height 4 cm

ImageUntitled by Bond Beyond, on Flickr

Tie space 1.5 cm

ImageUntitled by Bond Beyond, on Flickr

Collar points 8 cm

Thanks,
BB
couch
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Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:19 pm

I believe you are measuring at the correct places, B&B*. However, note that the collar "stand" or height of the collar band (either including the height of the folded-down top leaf or not, depending on your convention) is usually different (and lower) at the front, where you are measuring, than at the center back of the collar. I believe (please correct me if I misunderstand, Frank) that the two-inch shirt collar height Frank refers to, and the subsequent discussion of how much shirt should show above the jacket collar, are using the center back of the collar as their reference point.

My and Michael's contention that most guys with average to long necks wear shirts with too-low collar stands, while including the back stand, derives more obviously from the front stand where you are measuring. The reason is that many shirts, even RTW shirts, have adequate back stands that taper too much by the time they reach the front. Most U.S. button-down shirt collars have, until quite recently, had a standard back stand of 1.75 or 1 7/8 inches (OK for an average neck stature) but fell to one or one and an eighth inches or so in front. Many current collars have reduced the back stand to 1.5" or less—inadequate for most men and jackets.

This along with lack of tie space leads to all the ills Michael has described so well. The low default front stand allows manufacturers to accommodate guys with prominent Adam's apples or shorter necks and so "fits" more people (same principle as the the low RTW armhole). But if the neck circumference of the shirt is accurately sized, even a fairly prominent Adam's apple can comfortably be accommodated in a front stand that's a quarter-inch or more higher than the default. In this measurement, a small change makes a big difference.

Another thing to note in Michael's collar is that the top edge of the collar band in front continues the full height of the collar band a good way as it extends out past the edge of the leaf to create tie space before making a fairly sharp round corner down the front edge. It doesn't start sloping downward immediately after it passes the front edge of the leaf. This has a couple of effects. First, the overlap of these band edges doesn't leave a V of skin pressing against the top of the tie knot in the tie space, so skin oil and perspiration don't stain the ties over time. Second, the overlap of cloth behind the tie reinforces the integrity of the collar band's vertical structure, helping to keep the position of the tie knot and collar points stable over hours of wearing.

The diagonal angle of the single buttonhole in his shirts without two-button collars assists this stability: any stress on the collar, whether from shrinkage or movement of the neck in activity, causes the button shank to slide upward so that the stress stays high in the collar, helping to keep it from gapping or rolling down. Kind of like a Ban-Rol waistband in trousers, but for shirt collars.

I remember Manton once saying that his pet peeve was shirt collar bands showing above tie knots. I now see this everywhere. The cause appears to be (counterintuitively) low front collar bands with inadequate tie space, leading to knots that won't stay in place and hang limply, so the weight of the blades loosens the knot even more over time—a vicious circle.

*In case the hook on your tape slides, you'll get more accurate results measuring between marks on the tape—start at 1 cm and then subtract 1 from your measured value. Also, make sure the bottom of the band on the left and right sides of the shirt are exactly aligned when you measure the tie space—in your photo the buttonhole side is angled down noticeably, affecting the tie space measurement. It looks to me that, on balance, your front stand is probably a little less than 4 cm (probably about 1.5 inches instead of 1.574 inches). Your tie space measurement looks pretty close since the tape extends a bit beyond the join with the leaf, which offsets the shortening effect of the front band angling downward—somewhere between 0.5 and 0.6 inches.
alden
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Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:13 pm

It’s best to study a collar from the backside, the collar folded out. In this example, the collar stand is 1 3/4” and the overall collar height with stand is about 4 1/4” (10+cms)

ImageIMG_1243 by The London Lounge, on Flickr

Here you see 1” of tie space.

ImageIMG_1242 by The London Lounge, on Flickr

And here is the leaf length at 3 3/4” or 9 cms

ImageIMG_1244 by The London Lounge, on Flickr

This is a pretty standard, mid sized shirt collar to wear with a suit for me. i have larger in my collection.

Cheers
old henry
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Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:18 pm

The shirts I have are the same center back around to front button. I know that most shirts are much lower in the front. they are scooped out at the Adam's apple. I myself do not like that look. I think it's weak. And collars should be a bit snug. There should be no wiggle room. I am right now watching a schmuk , max kellerman , a boxing mouth who knows only what he googles. He thinks he looks Goddamn great. But his shirt is way too low for his long goofy neck as is his coat collar. And his shirt collar is 1/2" too big. He looks like a bobble head in a '64 Impala. I just turned him off. He's trying to convince me that Canelo vs Golovkin was a close fight. Golovkin kicked Canelos ass.
Russell
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Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:05 am

old henry wrote:The shirts I have are the same center back around to front button. I know that most shirts are much lower in the front. they are scooped out at the Adam's apple. I myself do not like that look. I think it's weak. And collars should be a bit snug. There should be no wiggle room. I am right now watching a schmuk , max kellerman , a boxing mouth who knows only what he googles. He thinks he looks Goddamn great. But his shirt is way too low for his long goofy neck as is his coat collar. And his shirt collar is 1/2" too big. He looks like a bobble head in a '64 Impala. I just turned him off. He's trying to convince me that Canelo vs Golovkin was a close fight. Golovkin kicked Canelos ass.

I didn’t know who Max Kellerman was so I took a leaf out of his book & used ‘Google’ to pull up photos of the chap. Some of his collars don’t do him justice as you say. Perhaps it’s the influence of the TV company but does he ever wear anything other than the most boring ties?

In general – this thread has developed into an excellent reference not only for advice as to what makes a decent collar but also defining measurements for ease of reference/discussion.

I do agree that a larger/higher collar than is often found on shirts is beneficial for many men. I saw the light after starting to wear casual shirts by Cordings some years ago; they have the most substantial collars I’ve found on any RTW shirt especially country casual style ones. I’ve used their collar proportions on the shirts I have made & find them very easy to live with as regards tie knots & general appearance.

A ‘64 Imala with a 409 ci big block Frank? Looking at the 2014-17 version it’s not only shirt collars which have shrunk!

Regards
Russell
alden
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Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:06 pm

I saw the light after starting to wear casual shirts by Cordings some years ago; they have the most substantial collars I’ve found on any RTW shirt especially country casual style ones.
The old Cording country casual shirts in the Viyella mode had about 3/4" of tie space and the collars were a bit larger than the nano-collars most UK makers produce. I was wearing one this morning when I read this Russell so I took a look. :D

RTW makers make micro collars because 99.99% of men don't know any better and it saves money on raw materials. But when I see so called "bespoke" houses selling the stuff I get concerned because the hallmark of a great "bespoke" shirt should be its beautiful collar.

Nuff said, I am moving on to the next weakest point in men's dress in a new series of posts: TROUSERS.

Cheers
couch
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Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:54 am

It's probably obvious, but perhaps worth making explicit, that a higher front collar stand means that a longer point length is necessary to hit the same spot on the shirt front as a shorter point length on a shirt with a lower front collar stand.

This may entail some adjustment of assumptions for those of us accustomed to envisioning point length in terms of commercial-height front collar stands. Even on a 1.5-inch front stand collar, which is pretty generous for RTW, 3.75-inch collar points might seem quite long (at least for a 15.5-inch neck, which is what I'm equipped with). But as Michael's besuited pictures show, the leaves on his collars sit quite elegantly. Restrained, even understated. The higher front stand allows the generous point length to appear balanced. What changes is just the slightly higher line of collar on the neck (a good thing, usually) and improved support for the tie knot, if worn.
Rob O
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Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:28 pm

I was checking to see if Mary Frittolini had resumed practice (sadly not) and was admiring one of her linen creations. I suspect even this fine collar might not pass muster due to insufficient tie space. But the leaf length and stand height seem good:

Image
alden
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Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:46 pm

Yes, RobO, it looks awfully good in many respects. If it were mine, I would have a bit more tie space but there does seem to be some space in this one. Its a Windsor variant with an elegant mid (not too open) spread. Mary did many many things very very well. :D

Cheers
Noble Savage
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Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:37 am

The small and tight.

Image

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2018/01/ ... 348414.jpg

Richard John Bingham, 7th Earl of Lucan.
alden
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Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:32 am

Not a bad collar: good height, a measure of tie space, nice spread angle..points could be a bit longer. Tiny, strangled tie knot makes me gasp for breath. 8)

Cheers
Luca
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Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:05 am

A microscopic knot indeed. I believe it was a rather common fashion, at that time, based on films and photos of that period.

What would the advice be for different neck 'heights'? In other words, is there an ideal place the front and back collar heights should reach relative to one's neck length? I, for instance, probably have a somewhat shorter neck than some posters and I find that high collars are uncomfortable and look wrong, on me.
alden
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Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:32 pm

In other words, is there an ideal place the front and back collar heights should reach relative to one's neck length? I, for instance, probably have a somewhat shorter neck than some posters and I find that high collars are uncomfortable and look wrong, on me.
Designing a collar to meet your specific needs is the job of a true custom shirtmaker. That is the point of a good deal of this thread.

It is pretty hard to give you collar measures without seeing you. But the measures of my shirt above is a good midpoint for a collar if you do not have anyone who is able or willing to make you a custom collar.

If a collar is uncomfortable it is likely too rigid, especially if it is industrially made. If you ask a custom shirtmaker to make you a soft collar, it will be constructed with very fine linen interlining. You will never feel it and in this way you can wear a higher, more flattering collar. The design aids the construction and the construction aids the design.

Do you see how "custom" making works now and why it is important? Especially if you are paying the price for it! :evil:

Cheers
ggreen
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Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:46 pm

Gentlemen, I find this discussion quite interesting as I've just had my shirt pattern remade after 12 years of use. We also designed a new collar. I do like comfort and have a relatively short neck. Couple of points.
First, as Michael pointed out, softness of interlining is very important. An aspect that sometimes is overlooked and is particularly important for light soft interlining is its springiness. Collar has to retain a good bounce. Without bounce a soft collar is totally limp. My shirtmaker tells me that best interlinings are Swiss.
Second, I find that side height is almost more important for comfort than front height when a shirt is worn with a tie. In other words, what I find uncomfortable is collar digging into my chin when I lean or turn my head. We often talk about front height, but I think most of the discomfort is actually good 1.5" to 2.5" away from center. This is where a good shirtmaker can do some magic with taper and curves. Just like a heel on a good bespoke shoe appears high but in reality is mere .5" or less.
On one point I disagree with Michael. I can't really live with one collar. The tall double button collar shirts I prefer for casual wear in my case have no chance of being buttoned at the neck.

Greg
Rob O
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Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:56 pm

Well, after ingesting all this valuable advice and methodically communicating my requirements to my shirt maker I end up with this disappointing result :( They’re a very reputable and competent tailors so I suspect this is my failing, although the fitting and initial trunk show consultations were held at breakneck speed (<10 minutes apiece). The shirt material is LL linen (seems to have faded to a sort of blue-lilac from blue whilst away with the tailor). The sleeves are at least 2 inches too long and there’s a mass of loose material around the chest and waist. The collar shape is completely wrong too. But I’m not going to give up. Its gone back for rework and, anyway, I just view this as iteration #1. Future commissions will build on this foundation. I’ll move the blade buttons onboard, as per Michael’s preferred configuration. I’ll post some more photos if they’re of interest and/or helpful :D

Image
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