Bespoke shirtmaker

[Scot]

there isn't a shirtmaker who can be recommended without qualification.

As with all things, it depends who and what you believe.

What I'm not getting is hand sewn button holes. But the shirts fit

When I get to the point of worrying about whether the button holes on my shirt are hand sewn I will head for the hills with a shotgun.

[Concordia]

When I get to the point of worrying about whether the button holes on my shirt are hand sewn I will head for the hills with a shotgun.

Or Central London, to administer justice.

[davidhuh]

What I'm not getting is hand sewn button holes. But the shirts fit

When I get to the point of worrying about whether the button holes on my shirt are hand sewn I will head for the hills with a shotgun.

Dear Scot,

fair point

Cheers, David

[hectorm]

I believe I'm right in saying that Budd won't make button-down shirts, which means they're arguably not a bespoke maker, and inarguably limited in their usefulness to me.

Dear Manself, actually Budd does make button-down shirts. Although I have not seen the style amongst their RTWs, it's one of the collar options available for MTM. And also, of course, if you go "bespoke" you can do pretty much what your heart desires.
I know you may have other arguments for not calling Budd a true bespoke shirtmaker in the purist sense (limited hand work, sending the shirt to another shop to be put together after it's cut at the premises, etc.) but the availability of a simple button-down collar wouldn't be one of them.

[bond_and_beyond]

Dear Manself, actually Budd does make button-down shirts. Although I have not seen the style amongst their RTWs, it's one of the collar options available for MTM. And also, of course, if you go "bespoke" you can do pretty much what your heart desires.
I know you may have other arguments for not calling Budd a true bespoke shirtmaker in the purist sense (limited hand work, sending the shirt to another shop to be put together after it's cut at the premises, etc.) but the availability of a simple button-down collar wouldn't be one of them.

I struggle with this concept of "true bespoke" both when it comes to shirts and suits. It seems that, at least for most of the 20th century at least, neither bespoke shirts nor suits in England were manufactured in a way the purists consider "true bespoke".

Shirts were cut on the premises but very rarely made there as even back in yesteryear Mayfair real estate was a precious commodity indeed. Budd originally had their shirts made in workrooms in Peckham for example.

It's the same with Savile Row and suits. I couldn't find it right now, but there's an interesting article out the describing how Henry Poole (I believe) employed something like a 100 tailors in 1900. All specialised as coat makers, trouser makers, uniforms, formal wear etc. Ie never one man making the whole thing.

If this then is not "true bespoke", it seems to me that there never was much of a tradition for bespoke in London. Yet the word bespoke has English origins..

BB

[alden]

If this then is not "true bespoke", it seems to me that there never was much of a tradition for bespoke in London. Yet the word bespoke has English origins..

BB

Bespoke means "made for or commissioned by a specific individual." It is a general term that encompasses a great diversity of products and manufacturing processes. What they all do is deliver you something that you precisely ordered for yourself.

If we close our eyes and imagine "car." We will see anything from the most humble kit car, through to a modest Daihatsu, to a utilitarian Toyota, all the way to a Formula 1 Maclaren or a hand built vintage Bugatti. They are all cars. The very same wide spectrum exists in many things, including the things that interest us here in the LL, fabrics and "bespoke" tailoring.

Having a great artist measure, cut, fit and craft for you by hand using traditional techniques is seen by many as the nec plus ultra of the sartorial arts. But it only will be such if the hand truly is a master's hand.

And all the various solutions from the bespoke spectrum will serve you to some degree. The Camry will get you to your destination as easily, if not better, than the Ferrari, but it might not be as comfortable as a Bentley. It depends on your needs and your budget.

I have always had great success working one on one with an individual craftsman and all my wardrobe issues from this very enjoyable collaborative work. But this luxury is getting very hard to find as there are few suitably gifted practitioners.

But what is more important than the provenance of the clothes, is how YOU wear the clothes.

That does not depend on your budget. It depends on YOU.

Cheers

[bond_and_beyond]

Bespoke means "made for or commissioned by a specific individual." It is a general term that encompasses a great diversity of products and manufacturing processes. What they all do is deliver you something that you precisely ordered for yourself.

If we close our eyes and imagine "car." We will see anything from the most humble kit car, through to a modest Daihatsu, to a utilitarian Toyota, all the way to a Formula 1 Maclaren or a hand built vintage Bugatti. They are all cars. The very same wide spectrum exists in many things, including the things that interest us here in the LL, fabrics and "bespoke" tailoring.

Having a great artist measure, cut, fit and craft for you by hand using traditional techniques is seen by many as the nec plus ultra of the sartorial arts. But it only will be such if the hand truly is a master's hand.

And all the various solutions from the bespoke spectrum will serve you to some degree. The Camry will get you to your destination as easily, if not better, than the Ferrari, but it might not be as comfortable as a Bentley. It depends on your needs and your budget.

I have always had great success working one on one with an individual craftsman and all my wardrobe issues from this very enjoyable collaborative work. But this luxury is getting very hard to find as there are few suitably gifted practitioners.

But what is more important than the provenance of the clothes, is how YOU wear the clothes.

That does not depend on your budget. It depends on YOU.

Cheers

I don't disagree with that, but working with individual craftsmen as you describe just seems to me to be not something that was common even "back in the day" in London. Ie it is not the English tradition of bespoke but rather the more Italian craft tradition with small "mom and pop" shops working out of the backroom. London was always more "industrial" in that sense.

Even Scholte did not himself sew the DoW's clothes? He was just the cutter surely?

So it strikes me to be about different traditions all together. So in that sense to you the London way could never be the ne plus ultra even if you could resurrect Scholte himself to be your cutter?

BB

[alden]

I don't disagree with that, but working with individual craftsmen as you describe just seems to me to be not something that was common even "back in the day" in London. Ie it is not the English tradition of bespoke but rather the more Italian craft tradition with small "mom and pop" shops working out of the backroom. London was always more "industrial" in that sense.

I do agree with you. Yes the individual craftsman of this kind were often found in Italy. Though the bulk of my wardrobe was made by an individual craftsman in London. But that was an oddity to say the least.

I suppose you could say that traditional tailoring has aspects of the semi-industrial about it. But back then like today, the workers in a top tailoring firm are highly trained and very highly skilled. From what I have seen over the years, derived from experiences like personally inspecting Windsor's clothes made by Scholte, there was more hand work in the older works (and there were better fabrics.) But I have also noted that the overall effect was very much the same as clothing made today using very similar processes.

Having the same man cut and sew for me has been an advantage given my particular needs. My coats need a lot of special attention to fit correctly. I never, in over forty two years of trying, had a coat made by a tailoring firm fit me as well as one made by an individual. It just worked out that way. And once again, I am the oddity in this respect and not the rule. So for my purposes and needs, it was the nec plus ultra as the other very lovely clothes did not remain in my wardrobe. And notwithstanding the fitting issues, that in my mind are the fundamental ones, I prefer clothes largely sewn by hand. To me, they wear more comfortably and are more aesthetically pleasing overall.

Cheers

[dfoverdx2]

I have bespoke experience with different levels;
- one man shop where same person make the entire garment himself
- in-house production where different individuals work under the same roof, generally from same family
- outsourced production (like sewing etc.) with good quality control over the final product
- outsourced production with poor control over the final product

At least from my experience more you go down in the list above less satisfaction you get. If you find one man shop it's really best of best but very hard to find as already mentioned... It can be question of skill but i think economically as well it's very difficult to run one man shop...

[aston]

Fully agree that the one man shop is probably the best option, and I know of one guy in the UK who provides just that service.

Equally, I think familiarity counts for a lot; my most used tailor has made me 20+ formal suits, and I see the first couple as well informed experiments and all since as near perfect as one could hope for.

[Dr T]

Aston ,please pass on the information -I have some shirts currently in production at Harvey and Hudson.

[aston]

Dear Dr T

Sorry I cannot help you with Shirts; my comment picked up an earlier post about tailors.

[Frans]

(....)
Even Scholte did not himself sew the DoW's clothes? He was just the cutter surely?
(...)
BB

Just the cutter?
The best garments were made by great cutters, masters in illusion

To be honest, I find the division of labour in London most useful. I would not call it industrial per se. Just take the complexity of a jacket; a good coat maker will not automatically be a good finisher. Constructing fine button holes will be specialist work too and the same goes for a lot of trouser making also in Italy, by the way.

In an ideal world a good cutter will be overlooking the whole process. True, the model has its weaknesses when price is an issue, which very often is the case in London because of high living costs. Perhaps you could call city tailors industrial because speed & the price point is so crucial for them, a fitting often just taking 10-15 minutes. On the other hand you certainly find traditional houses on SR with a workroom just behind the fitting room, where all stitching and padding is done by hand...

Take Mr Joe Morgan. At each fitting he will call in the respective tailors in order to raise issues with them and have them pay attention to each their aspect of the work. Often there's another fitting the same or the next day. There are many fittings. A suit moulded by Mr. Morgan's hands takes up to hundred hours of labour. He won't have it leave the house unless he's sure about the quality and fit.

E.g. Mr. Morgan thinks the long seams of a pair of trousers have to be done by hand. The brutal speed of a machine might destruct the elegant line. A new trouser maker told me it took her almost a week to sew her first pairs of trousers that way. For that reason she became specialized in trousers and only trousers. She's down at something between 1 and 2 working days now.

I have suits from a "one man business" but would not call them the best in any respect, although they are very harmonious and comfortable.

I think as Alden points out in the end its a'll a matter of dedication of the craftsman in question.
True craftsmen will always focus on the garment itself rather than on branding, price and speed

[alden]

I think as Alden points out in the end its a'll a matter of dedication of the craftsman in question.
True craftsmen will always focus on the garment itself rather than on branding, price and speed.

Franz

In my opinion it comes down to having the will to do things well. Talent is not enough. It is the same in everything. You want a doctor who has the training, the experience and the talent. But having the will to do things well animates all these very important gifts. Almost all successful people have this attribute and it is something I look for in relationships of this kind.

As far as Joe Morgon is concerned, I have a few friends who are remarkably well served by him and I have never seen a work I didn't admire. The clothes fit impeccably. That is a sign of the will to get things right. When you sign your check for a craftsman like that, you do it with a big grin on your face.

Cheers

[hectorm]

A suit moulded by Mr. Morgan's hands takes up to hundred hours of labour. He won't have it leave the house unless he's sure about the quality and fit.

I have the utmost respect for all the great work that comes out of Chittleborough & Morgan, (particularly those strong shoulders) but hours of labour in a suit is a better indicator of its production cost than of its craft, quality, and fit. If anything, an outrageous amount of hours in a suit means that some mistakes or inefficiencies took place and that the firm is willing to absorb some losses in order to deliver something that matches the house reputation. Even at a tag of thirty four hundred pounds for a suit, one hundred hours (or 90 or 80) seem excessive and I´m sure they are not making much profit on those suits, which is unsustainable. As clients I believe we shouldn´t be really interested in how many hours were built in our garments. As for me, I´m more focused on final results (and a rather pleasant process to achieve it) even if I found that my suit only took 40 hours or less to take shape.