Bespoke property rights: who owns the pattern / last?

[erasmus]

Perusing the bespoke section on the Grenson website, I came across the notion that the last is the customer's "personal property". This raises some intriguing questions and possibilities in my mind.

So I ask both rhetorically and practically - who really owns the individual patterns associated with bespoke garments and footwear? If it is indeed the customer, is this common practice across most bespoke artisans? Further, how practicable (and common) is it to ask for a copy of your pattern/last? And I ask all these questions not simply out of sheer idleness.

Here's one practical reason. Say I would like to work with a bespoke tailor in making some suits and jackets for me. Suppose further that said tailor is (a) an independent craftsman not affiliated with a larger tailoring house and (b) approaching very close to retirement. Even if I find his house style eminently suitable for me, there seems to be a risk I take in going with such tailor. Namely, there is very little assurance in getting similar garments in the future once he retires and ceases operations.

How can I mitigate such risks? The one possibility I see is asking for a copy of your pattern/last shortly before the tailor retires. The question then becomes how feasible is it for another tailor to produce garments off of another tailor's pattern.

I've cross-posted this in AskAndy as well.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[TVD]

At Cleverley the last is not billed, so one should assume it is their rightful property. Houses such as Lobb do in fact charge for it, but I have never heard of a customer demanding it physically. Any other bootmaker would invariably wish to start with their own last for you, I guess, so it will hardly matter.

With the paper patterns at a tailors it is much simpler: few tailors can read each other's patterns. The details are all important, and rarely recorded long hand. When my old tailor in Prague retired, his patterns became useless.

The Savile Row houses try to have a period of handover between a retiring cutter and his replacement, not only to introduce the clients to the new cutter, but also to have somebody who can read the patterns. I must admit though, that the personal knowledge of client and cutter gained through a long term relationship is all important. No pattern can record style and preference, or replace an inherent understanding of habit, movement and posture. In my view the patter is useless without the cutter who drew it. That is probably the difference beteen MTM and bespoke.

So while a lawyer may give you an exact answer, from a practical point of view the question itself does not arise.

[AlexanderKabbaz]

What TVD has eloquently expressed is in fact true. Patterns are written and recorded in dialects ... and there are as many dialects as there are bespoke artisans.

I am cross-answering you here only because you have posted this on two fora lest there be any confusion. Herewith my previous answer:

So I ask both rhetorically and practically - who really owns the individual patterns associated with bespoke garments and footwear?

ME!

If it is indeed the customer, is this common practice across most bespoke artisans?

No way in heck among artisans. Perhaps amongst larger corporations passing themselves off as artisanal but using standard patterns which have no thought or proprietary methodology inherent in their design.

About the only way a for a client to get a copy of their pattern is to take one of the garments apart, trace the pieces, and add on the correct allowance for shrinkage.

Sorry if I seem a bit vehement on this subject, but this particular piece of intellectual property is a bespoke artisan's main stock-in-trade.

Here's one practical reason. Say I would like to work with a bespoke tailor in making some suits and jackets for me. Suppose further that said tailor is (a) an independent craftsman not affiliated with a larger tailoring house and (b) approaching very close to retirement. Even if I find his house style eminently suitable for me, there seems to be a risk I take in going with such tailor. Namely, there is very little assurance in getting similar garments in the future once he retires and ceases operations.

How can I mitigate such risks? The one possibility I see is asking for a copy of your pattern/last shortly before the tailor retires. The question then becomes how feasible is it for another tailor to produce garments off of another tailor's pattern.

Insofar as the remainder of your concerns: It is common practice for artisans to either sell or gift their collection of patterns to a successor upon retirement. Alternatively, some artisans do give the patterns to their clients.

It does not behoove you to become a client of a tailor who is about to retire. You, too, have a great deal of time invested in making your pattern the best it can be. Longevity of use is an important consideration.

It is entirely feasible for a succeeding artisan to produce garments from a predecessor's patterns if they have conversed about 'the meaning of things' in advance.

[Metcalfe]

Mr. Kabbaz,

Would a previous shirtmaker's pattern be of any value to you? When physicians accept a new patient into their practice, they might be curious to see a patient's medical record even if they intend to manage the patient's condition differently. Does the same idea apply in bespoke clothing or is it better to start without a history?

Metcalfe

[Mark Seitelman]

I think that most reputable artisans would show you the door if you asked for the pattern or last. Yes, it's "your" pattern, but that means that the tailor will not use it for the next Joe.

A friend bought some shoes from Lobb London many years ago. He did the bespoke shoe thing and moved on. About 10 years later Lobb wrote to him and indicated that it was doing some house cleaning in that it would discard his last if a new order was not placed. There was no offer for the customer to pick-up his last.

[AlexanderKabbaz]

Would a previous shirtmaker's pattern be of any value to you? When physicians accept a new patient into their practice, they might be curious to see a patient's medical record even if they intend to manage the patient's condition differently. Does the same idea apply in bespoke clothing or is it better to start without a history?

Assuming that it was draughted by a qualified artisan and kept up-to-date, the previous pattern would be of value provided that I could see the new client wearing a shirt cut from the pattern. I would get ideas regarding the client's desires in areas such as fullness, sleeve length, collar height, and the like. It would, however, be only an additional building block to use in the creation of my pattern.

I had the opportunity to "inherit" a set of patterns back in the 1980's from a shirtmaker named Trapani upon his retirement. Having amassed a considerable fortune if local scuttlebutt had veracity, he was merely trying to offer a number of his long-time, loyal clients a place to continue getting their shirts. Turned out that in his earlier years penuriousness was the key and quite a few of the patterns had been draughted on newspaper. Now, I have inherited patterns cut from wrapping tissue, from manilla ... even from pasted-together file folders ... but newspaper had to take the cake. Not only did it literally crumple in my fingers, but those that did manage to hold together stained the fabric with black ink.

And as regards the John Lobb incident above, I, too, send letters to non-ordering clients every decade or so threatening to discard their patterns if I don't hear from them. If I don't receive a timely reply (say a year or so) I do indeed destroy the pattern. Usually in the fireplace on a cold Winter's day when it can do some good in heating up the kindling.

[erasmus]

Fascinating discussion, thanks everyone. Given the fragility of patterns, I was wondering if Mr. Kabbaz and other artisans would consider entertaining special material requests for patterns? I'm sure this would be an extra vanity charge but I know I would sleep better at night if I knew my shirt pattern was drafted onto sterling silver, perhaps enameled and engraved with a family crest.

[Metcalfe]

Erasmus continues to ask thought-provoking questions. Patients' paper medical records are transitioning (albeit slowly) to electronic medical records. Do any tailors or shirtmakers digitize patterns through scanning? The average Kinko's (a US photocopy store owned by FedEx) can print architectural plans on special printers that accept large paper; why can't the same be accomplished for bespoke patterns? That would also solve Mr. Kabbaz's problem of storing patterns. Of course that would not work for shoe lasts.

Metcalfe

[Guest]

Shoe's last: my shoemaker has digitallized my last in a format taht can be taken by a numeric control machine and be doubled - to make a different last or to build the 3-piece wood trees.

[erasmus]

Shoe's last: my shoemaker has digitallized my last in a format taht can be taken by a numeric control machine and be doubled - to make a different last or to build the 3-piece wood trees.

Ah, brilliant! Now that sounds like a very respectable marriage of modern technology with customer convenience and respect for the artisan's craft.

[Étienne]

For a few years, J.M. Weston experimented with some sort of "advanced MTM" that was more or less similar. They were taking measures using a laser device of sorts, and were keeping the data in electronic format.

This line has been discontinued, so I have not been able to test the results.

[Tony]

I think it depends on the company, from what i gather Lobb st james are quite difficult to deal with anyway, so it wouldn't supprise me that a customer would not be able to obtain his last, in contrast if you approached Fosters or Cleverley i don't think that you would have a problem obtaining your last, I would also have no problem giving a customer his last or upper pattern.

I think most of us would prefer to start with a clean sheet anyway

[JLPWCXIII]

What TVD has eloquently expressed is in fact true. Patterns are written and recorded in dialects ... and there are as many dialects as there are bespoke artisans.

I am cross-answering you here only because you have posted this on two fora lest there be any confusion. Herewith my previous answer:

So I ask both rhetorically and practically - who really owns the individual patterns associated with bespoke garments and footwear?

ME!

If it is indeed the customer, is this common practice across most bespoke artisans?

No way in heck among artisans. Perhaps amongst larger corporations passing themselves off as artisanal but using standard patterns which have no thought or proprietary methodology inherent in their design.

About the only way a for a client to get a copy of their pattern is to take one of the garments apart, trace the pieces, and add on the correct allowance for shrinkage.

Sorry if I seem a bit vehement on this subject, but this particular piece of intellectual property is a bespoke artisan's main stock-in-trade.

Here's one practical reason. Say I would like to work with a bespoke tailor in making some suits and jackets for me. Suppose further that said tailor is (a) an independent craftsman not affiliated with a larger tailoring house and (b) approaching very close to retirement. Even if I find his house style eminently suitable for me, there seems to be a risk I take in going with such tailor. Namely, there is very little assurance in getting similar garments in the future once he retires and ceases operations.

How can I mitigate such risks? The one possibility I see is asking for a copy of your pattern/last shortly before the tailor retires. The question then becomes how feasible is it for another tailor to produce garments off of another tailor's pattern.

Insofar as the remainder of your concerns: It is common practice for artisans to either sell or gift their collection of patterns to a successor upon retirement. Alternatively, some artisans do give the patterns to their clients.

It does not behoove you to become a client of a tailor who is about to retire. You, too, have a great deal of time invested in making your pattern the best it can be. Longevity of use is an important consideration.

It is entirely feasible for a succeeding artisan to produce garments from a predecessor's patterns if they have conversed about 'the meaning of things' in advance.

Mr Kabbaz,

I have taken the liberty of returning the colour to your quotation from the other forum.

[erasmus]

JLPWCXIII, I believe that particular shade of red is the property of Mr. Kabbaz's. In keeping with the theme of this thread, please return that bespoke color back to him.

[pemazel]

Gentlemen!

From a (continental) judicial point of view I presume the answer is rather simple: the last, the pattern, etc. belong to the shoemaker, the tailor, etc. The photograper owns the right to the picture as well, even though you might have paid him to photograph you. Maybe it would be different if you asked your shoemaker to make a last for you (but most of us don't). So to me it sounds logical that Lobb does not ask the (former) customer if he wants to receive the lasts.

Paul