Evening Tails (White Tie)

[gcg]

I shall be commissioning some soon, and had a few questions about particular aspects. My current tails are old off the peg:

1. The shoulder: antique tails have a shoulder seam that rather than going straight at the apex of the shoulder (as all modern coats/ tails do), curves backwards onto the back. Is this an obsolete method or still preferable?

2. Level and angle of the bottom of the front part of the body coat" Some I see are almost horizontal, some very much angle down towards the front. Similarly some are at the level of the true waist, others lower.

3. Width of tails: some tail portions seem to be only the width of the back, whereas so curve around to the front.

Any other points that I should be considering, my tailor can do pretty much anything I ask rather well, but if I don't request then he will just use a standard style. (I saw a film where the victorian chap had velvet on his collar!)

Finally the waistcoat: I don't really like the now stereotypical white pique waistcoat. In old pictures there is a variety of styles/ materials. I quite like the idea of a double breasted ivory or even cream silk. What is allowable/ acceptable, and where would I source a suitable silk?

thanks

[YoungLawyer]

1. The shoulder: This is something that I've never seen re-created satisfactorily on a contemporary coat. If I were you, I would find a vintage coat that fits tolerably well across the shoulders, and have the shoulders copied. I had some tails made some years ago by an (otherwise perfectly good) tailor, but this was something that wasn't satisfactory at all. I ended up not wearing the coat much because of the fit in the shoulders when compared to an older coat.
I can't explain why, but my current tails in most frequent use (1907 Davis & Sons, several times relined and re-faced, but still much smarter than the new tails that were made by an off-the-row tailor) allow for much more movement in the shoulder. There is very little padding, and the sleeve is set out at almost a 45 degree angle from the body. The sleeve isn't especially narrow, even. I can't explain how this is cut done, but I think the best way for a successful commission may be to take an existing antique, and ask for it to be substantially copied, then have it adjusted further.
EDIT: This may have been my fault in part - the tailor I used steered me away from a "shirt cut" in the sleeve, as he thought it "too old-fashioned" and possibly uncomfortable. Perhaps he was wrong on this, and I should have asked for this - although I remain unclear as to whether there is a technical meaning to "shirt cut" on a coat sleeve.


2. Waist Seam angle - this is most influenced by the height it's placed. One sin of contemporary tailors is to have the waist seam very high, and at the narrowest part of the waist. The best coats are narrowest above the waist seam, perhaps by one inch or slightly more, and the waist seam (the "fashion waist" in earlier books, is lower, resting on the hips). Somehow, this allows for much more shape in the coat, and for the coat to be much more closely fitting, especially in the hollow of the back.

3. I think it's normal to have the front cut away to about 1 1/2 inches in front of the trouser seams, then slope gently back going down the leg. (certainly not a rule, but a rough guide).

On other points:
I've never seen a silk waistcoat look good in the flesh. Ever. I think a semi-U shape, single breasted, with 4 buttons, is the most stylish, and also with deep points below. I think these look less good with straight lines, and better if there are curves to the points of the waistcoat. Deep points to the waistcoat often require a more sloped fronts.

The best coats, in my view, are cut to be worn open. Some coats are cut to overlap as if they could close (often off-the-peg evening coats are like this), and this is less work for the tailor, because the fit is slightly baggier, and the fronts will inevitably stand away from the body when worn. A coat cut to be worn open should be shaped so it remains closer to the body, and so that the fronts do not quite touch. Harder to get right, but infinitely more elegant.

Fit around the collar is also difficult to get right - older pictures, and the better coats, fit much closer to, and higher up, the stiff collar. I've noticed on many of the more recent coats I've seen being worn, the tailors allow the coat to fit much lower on the neck/shoulders. The effect means that the coat looks like it's resting horizontally on the shoulders only, rather than following the 'vertical' line of the collar. This includes offerings from the Row. Make sure that this fits really closely around the collar - anything other than a really close fit looks awful.

When I had my evening coat made, I used P&B 18/19oz barrathea. This was a mistake. Although the weight was similar to the vintage barrathea fabrics I have on my other coats, the fabric is much thicker. I think a 15oz barrathea would be my choice now. Having said that, the trousers have been excellent in this cloth, and put up with very heavy use over a number of years without ever showing a sign of wearing out.

After all that, I suppose I'd better offer a picture of my own coat - but I don't have a very good picture to share. This one shows some of the details, before I had the coat altered to fit more closely around the collar. It has now been altered to sit higher, so the tie is completely hidden, and is much more satisfactory (https://uk.pinterest.com/pin/419749627745845289/).

[hectorm]

Finally the waistcoat: I don't really like the now stereotypical white pique waistcoat. In old pictures there is a variety of styles/ materials. I quite like the idea of a double breasted ivory or even cream silk. What is allowable/ acceptable, and where would I source a suitable silk?

The full dress waistcoat is probably the only item of the ensemble in which you could have some room for getting creative, with the rest strictly conforming to the known formality. I like the idea of the DB waistcoat, maybe with 4 MoP buttons and shallow points. Regarding the fabric I think that white marcella is still the best option for playing it safe. Marcella is the type of weaving and it could be cotton, linen or -there you have it- even silk. Maybe you can get one with a simple brocade on it, but I would be very careful. I don´t like the idea of silk, since it always has a bit of sheer, which IMO goes against the concept of full evening dress.

[Concordia]

Tails are notoriously difficult to cut, and provide the least amount of creative license to the tailor. So why not ask your tailor what he would do? If you don't like it, move elsewhere, but don't try to push him out of his comfort zone-- especially if he's doing standard issue stuff.

[davidhuh]

Tails are notoriously difficult to cut, and provide the least amount of creative license to the tailor. So why not ask your tailor what he would do? If you don't like it, move elsewhere, but don't try to push him out of his comfort zone-- especially if he's doing standard issue stuff.

Interesting discussion, as I'm about to commission my white tie

I concur with Concordia, as usual. The main problem is that today's tailors have very little experience in cutting evening tails and their customers are wearing the garment perhaps once a year instead of daily . And you need a man being experienced here. If I remember well, A&S used to have a tailor who did nothing but formal wear. The tailor who sew my dinner coat cut by Mr Mahon was such a person - unfortunately, he has passed away since.

So I would recommend to go somewhere where musicians and directors go. They wear their tails often, and freedom of movement is key.

Cheers, David

[gcg]

Thanks for the replies.

My tailor does do a good number of tails, he also did my morning coat that I was very happy with.

His specialty is actually hunt wear, as he is in the middle of Derbyshire. He also does the tails for the various Master Cutler events in Sheffield and also Freemasonry (which incidentally makes him extremely experienced at making strollers/ black and stripes).

I am confident that he can pull it off, and from experience the first suit made a tailor for you is never the best one, and so it is safer to go with a tailor who has made many suits for you and knows your body shape and particulars.

Certainly I have been told that it is not advisable to go to the Row for a one off commission, as you will be seen as a sartorial tourist and be given to one of the trainees to practice on.

[ay329]

As to the waistcoat, I made one in white pique and the other using the tailcoat cloth, but here is a double breasted version I might make up as a 3rd option:



Don't let your Tails collect dust in the closet while awaiting that rare formal event.

Enjoy your clothes to their fullest as I've worn mine to the Magic Castle, an evening wedding, a Halloween Party, an Edwardian Ball on Valentine's Day, and plan on wearing it the grave as my death suit. It is a shame some boulevardiers shy away from such elegant clothing as they can not conceive of any event to wear it.

At the Magic Castle:


Same color vest as the tailcoat at a wedding:


Some feel a tailcoat is a relic of the past and should only be worn on Halloween. So here you go:

[Luca]

I applaud your elan in wearing tails as often as possible. I think that, from a natural sense of understatement and delicacy, many elegant men fear 'overdressing ' to perhaps an excessive point.

[hectorm]

Enjoy your clothes to their fullest as I've worn mine to the Magic Castle, an evening wedding, a Halloween Party, an Edwardian Ball on Valentine's Day, and plan on wearing it the grave as my death suit. ]

I applaud your elan in wearing tails as often as possible.

I join Luca in recognizing you self-confidence.
I would like to follow your example, but if you saw my Halloween party attire you´d understand why I can´t really picture myself wearing it during my open casket wake.

[Frederic Leighton]

[...] So I would recommend to go somewhere where musicians and directors go. They wear their tails often, and freedom of movement is key.

Michelangeli says freedom of movement is overrated. Willpower is enough

Afterwards we went backstage to greet him and get his autograph. Leaning against a wall, he was dressed from head to toe in black. His eyes shifted from left to right and back again, while his head remained motionless. As he surveyed the room he pursed his lips, making a curious clicking sound with his tongue and his teeth, like a quiet kiss. At that moment he struck me as a combination of Marcello Mastroianni and Bo Ridley, Robert Duvall’s character in the film To Kill a Mockingbird.

[Leonard Logsdail]

"When" cut properly, white tie and tails are the most elegant of ensembles to wear.

The shoulder angle simply changed with the times. It's easier for us tailors to make a garment when the shoulder seams just lay on top of each other for sewing. I did make a few coats for a movie where the shoulder angle came way down on the back. The finished pattern looked really strange - certainly not how I envisaged it would look before starting.

Pick someone who really knows how to cut them. It's a garment you will keep for along time. It's better to invest than constantly wish you had!!

Leonard

[Despos]

There is much more thought and consideration in making tails over a conventional suit. There are also multiple methods of cutting tails and they are all appropriate variations.
I start with the height of the trouser, usually cut higher for this application. This has to balance with the front length of the jacket. The vest length will follow next as it should be shorter than the jacket fronts but still fall in a natural spot on the trouser. You want the overall proportions to look balanced as the three elements relate to each other.

The jacket fronts do not overlap and should show a three finger space between the front edges. Tail length should be 2-3 inches above the bend in the knee. I put the front edge of the tails to line up with the front dart of the fronts and then sweep to the back.

This jacket has a different balance. The fronts are short and don't button. The tails are long and the back part carries more weight than a normal cut jacket. You want the jacket to sit high at the back neck and the jacket to stay on the shoulder and not fall to the back. This should be the priority over the angle of the shoulder seam. Let your tailor figure it out for your body/shoulder type.

When the front hem is straight it is usually, not always, cut with a seam at the waist. This was another method of cutting.

[smudger]

gcg

To my knowledge after a conversation with one of the cutters I work with, once your standard jacket and trouser pattern is cut, from this point come morning coats, waistcoats and dress tails. I have found this to be true with one Savile Row cutter who has made me a morning coat and dress tails and actually showed me the patterns for both that had come from my original jacket pattern. So in theory, or so i'm told, its not nuclear physics. So shoulder seams, natural waist, chest and waist measures are all the same as per jacket. When I had my dress tails made this information was disclosed whilst being fitted and I was explained that the general rule of thumb is to cut a higher waisted trouser and a shorter length waistcoat to create a more elegant aesthetic.

The dress tails is truly my most treasured item in my wardrobe.

[davidhuh]

Gentlemen,

some time ago, I mentioned my white tie commission. The job is now done, and the garment had its premiere at a New Year's party somewhere in the Swiss mountains. I'm extremely pleased with the result, and so were some ladies

My white tie gives me a lot more freedom for movement than my dinner suit - actually, it cries for dancing and wild nights - our grand fathers knew a few things about dress and impress.

The tailor is an old man who has cut white tie for many musicians. He has also done a number of my suits, coats and overcoats. We usually do with one or maximum two fittings - the tails took six. He did a brilliant job, everything fits perfectly. He did the tails, trousers and the marcella waistcoat.

Cloth: Smith Woolens midnight blue all wool barathea, 13 oz (same as my dinner suit, http://www.thelondonlounge.net/forum/vi ... 083#p78083)
- Facing: grosgrain silk
- Shirt: linen, simple bosom linen front and detachable collar by Budd shirts (starched like card board)

A few pictures - the quality is not the best, I'm sorry for that. Limited light, wild cows and no time for making proper arrangements.

Cheers, David

[Screaminmarlon]

Beautiful ensemble David! And you look confortable and relaxed wearing it: congrats!
Saluti
M.