Traditional tweed suit project

[davidhuh]

A very quick question for the members:

Do your coats with action backs have a pleat in the lining to free up the movement in the back? I think a minor tweak may be necessary on my coat, as the lining can only expand a little, and does not allow the action back its full range of movement. I notice this when cycling and both my arms are extended forward.

I was thinking that maybe a box pleat on the centre back lining seam would work, is there a usual way of doing this?

Thank you.

Dear Mr Hillier,

your question made me check my Harris tweed coat with action back, and I discovered that I have the same problem. I will take it back to the tailor and have it repaired.

Looking at what he did inside, I am skeptical about a centre back lining seam, because the flexibility is not required in the centre but under the arms. He did foresee some room for movement there, but obviously not enough. I will let him work on the solution

Cheers, David

[Mr Hillier]

your question made me check my Harris tweed coat with action back, and I discovered that I have the same problem

Dear David,

Thank you for your reply. Maybe a lining with a bit more slack in it is all that is required. Let's see what the other members say.

Regards,

Hillier

[hectorm]

Dear Mr. Hillier,
an action shoulder pleat is useless if -having provided for the extra jacket fabric folded in the back- the lining becomes now the significant restrictive element.
Following David´s steps I also went and checked my English tailored MTM tweed jacket with action shoulders (one and three quarters inches deep), and the lining (heavy viscose twill) moves in parallel the whole extension of the back pleats when these are fully deployed. So, there´s no restriction here. The lining itself has no pleats and it´s only a little more generous and looser than in my "normal" jackets. This looseness, I believe, has generated a few small creases in the lining around that area and -if you saw it- you may say it does not look super neat. But it´s neither bulky, nor uncomfortable. And it works very fine.

[Mr Hillier]

Dear Mr. Hillier,
an action shoulder pleat is useless if -having provided for the extra jacket fabric folded in the back- the lining becomes now the significant restrictive element.
Following David´s steps I also went and checked my English tailored MTM tweed jacket with action shoulders (one and three quarters inches deep), and the lining (heavy viscose twill) moves in parallel the whole extension of the back pleats when these are fully deployed. So, there´s no restriction here. The lining itself has no pleats and it´s only a little more generous and looser than in my "normal" jackets. This looseness, I believe, has generated a few small creases in the lining around that area and -if you saw it- you may say it does not look super neat. But it´s neither bulky, nor uncomfortable. And it works very fine.

Dear Hectorm,

Thank you for the information. I think I could use a little more space in my lining. The small centre pleat in the back of the lining on my jacket has already been pulled taut. The pleats on my jacket are deeper, at over 2 1/2", so there is a lot of room to expand. So, one way or another, I will have this adjusted.

By the way, does your jacket have a piece of elastic inside the back to keep the pleats looking neat and to bring them back after they have been opened?

[davidhuh]

By the way, does your jacket have a piece of elastic inside the back to keep the pleats looking neat and to bring them back after they have been opened?

Dear Mr Hillier,

mine has.

cheers, David

[Mr Hillier]

By the way, does your jacket have a piece of elastic inside the back to keep the pleats looking neat and to bring them back after they have been opened?

Dear Mr Hillier,

mine has.

cheers, David

Dear David,

Thanks for the intelligence. I believe we will soon have completely reverse-engineered the 'action back', and may shortly have no need for tailors as we know them.

Regards,

Ed H

[hectorm]

Dear Hectorm,
By the way, does your jacket have a piece of elastic inside the back to keep the pleats looking neat and to bring them back after they have been opened?

Dear Mr. Hillier,
Yes. Although you cannot see it (but you can feel it with your fingers), my jacket has an elastic band hidden between the tweed and the lining that pulls from the sleeve –not from the extra cloth inside the pleat- to turn everything back into place once the arm is lowered. It seems that the elastic is attached to the sleeve and also to the top part of the cloth inside the pleat, which makes the extra fabric fold neatly once the sleeve is brought back into place.
Actually, although I´m no expert on the subject, I understand that is the way a true “action” back should be constructed. If it doesn´t have an elastic pulling everything back in place, then it´s not an “action” shoulder but just a shoulder with a piece of cloth folded inside a pleat. I haven´t discussed this with my tailor since my “action” back was one of the bespoke features that you could add to a MTM jacket.
I have another field jacket, vintage from an army surplus store, that has that type of simple pleats at both sides of the upper back, but I would not call that “action” back. There is no real movement and the cloth stays in or out of the pleat randomly.
Meanwhile “action” shoulders are indeed quite a feat of elegant engineering.

[Tutumulut]

Dear Mr. Hillier

Congratulations with what looks like a great and comfortable suit. May you wear it (in) in good health!

And thank you for providing much inspiration. I'm hoping to receive the Thornproof soon and am now planning something similar:

• - trousers with side adjusters and high waist and tail, buttons for braces, button fly, 2 inch turnups. Although advice is not to have pleats but a dart instead, I'm still contemplating a single pleat folding inward (French pleat in Italian)
  - classic city coat with 3 roll 2, patch pockets with flaps and 1 welted chest pocket, 2 side vents, fairly open quarters, storm collar, 2 inside game pockets as shown so nicely in your earlier example and as described and commented on by Hectorm. Originally I was contemplating a 1-button closure (high closure, still covering the trouser waist), but I can't see it with a storm collar. If someone has examples of a combination of 1-button closure and storm collar, I would be thankful

I decided against the action back as I plan to use it for walking/hiking as its most active activity and I'm not sure my tailor would be able to do it convincingly. It will be only my second commissioning (well, after starting 2 years ago with 2 suits in 1 go) and although I plan to push his and my boundaries, experienced members here have warned me not to go too fast too soon (as if a Neapolitan tailor ever lets a bespeaker tell what to do ).

A lovely thread where your questions and others' answers have proven to be a good school, for me and maybe also for others.



Cheers
T

[hectorm]

I was contemplating a 1-button closure (high closure, still covering the trouser waist), but I can't see it with a storm collar. If someone has examples of a combination of 1-button closure and storm collar, I would be thankful

Dear Rick,
I believe the one-button stance in tweed with a "storm collar" can be done convincingly provided: i) the lapels are quite substantial in width, ii) the quarters are rather closed and not slanting away; and iii) you have a double closure around your neck: the one with a tab in front of the collar, and a second one a little lower closing the left lapel tight over the right one (for this you just need a hidden but well placed button under the right lapel and your button-hole on the left one). This second closure would take care of the rather long distance from the collar to the only waist button. Twenty years ago the tailors at Huntsman were able to pull this one off with their eyes closed.
Somewhere out there I have seen a photograph with an example with all these characteristics I mention. It´s a picture of a Huntsman tweed suit that was part of a Saville Row exhibit travelling around the world. But now -in a hurry- all I could find was another photograph of that same suit (no collar tab though) being worn by a chap on a fixed-gear.

Nevertheless, despite having said all this, I still think that, on a heavy tweed with storm collar, and for a very tall man like you, you will be at an advantage with the 3 roll 2 that you envision.

[Mr Hillier]

Dear Mr. Hillier

Congratulations with what looks like a great and comfortable suit. May you wear it (in) in good health!

And thank you for providing much inspiration. I'm hoping to receive the Thornproof soon and am now planning something similar:

• - trousers with side adjusters and high waist and tail, buttons for braces, button fly, 2 inch turnups. Although advice is not to have pleats but a dart instead, I'm still contemplating a single pleat folding inward (French pleat in Italian)
  - classic city coat with 3 roll 2, patch pockets with flaps and 1 welted chest pocket, 2 side vents, fairly open quarters, storm collar, 2 inside game pockets as shown so nicely in your earlier example and as described and commented on by Hectorm. Originally I was contemplating a 1-button closure (high closure, still covering the trouser waist), but I can't see it with a storm collar. If someone has examples of a combination of 1-button closure and storm collar, I would be thankful

I decided against the action back as I plan to use it for walking/hiking as its most active activity and I'm not sure my tailor would be able to do it convincingly. It will be only my second commissioning (well, after starting 2 years ago with 2 suits in 1 go) and although I plan to push his and my boundaries, experienced members here have warned me not to go too fast too soon (as if a Neapolitan tailor ever lets a bespeaker tell what to do ).

A lovely thread where your questions and others' answers have proven to be a good school, for me and maybe also for others.



Cheers
T

Dear Tutumulut,

Thank you for your comments and your good wishes!

I think you are absolutely right, this has been a great thread, it is almost a 101 in tweed suits. Many of the points you make are also right on the money from the point of view of my experience, especially what you say about not pushing your tailor too far. The tailor who made my suit is not, as far as I know, experienced in action backs, and in retrospect something like that really does benefit from some experience, which became apparent when I realised that there wasn't enough slack in the lining to allow the back to open fully. As you wisely seem to realise, it didn't do anything for the mutual trust in the relationship.

My trousers seem fine with pleats, and this fabric is around 580 to 600 g/m. The tailor who made the suit would not consider trousers without pleats, and I naturally deferred to his judgement. I suggested darts as an alternative to pleats, as suggested by another of the members, and he was equally horrified.

Regarding your idea of a one-button closure, I am sure it would look great, but if you are planning to use the coat for walking and hiking, from my experience, you want as many buttons as possible. Although it is not classically done, I often find myself closing all three buttons on the front of my coat when I am walking into a cold wind. The same comment might apply to open quarters.

Also, there is a big difference between a tab collar which works and one which is cosmetic. Make it clear from the start that it needs to work.

One other issue which might one might consider in depth is the balance between functionality and fit. As was discussed at length earlier in the thread, an outdoor suit probably needs to go over a sweater. Mine is cut to go over a substantial sweater. The downside is that when worn just the waistcoat, there is a lot of space inside the jacket, and the suit wears cool because of this. As I have no matching breeks anyway, if I was to do this a second time, I think I would fit the jacket to go over a lighter sweater only, because when wearing it over a heavy sweater, I'm unlikely to be wearing the jacket with the trousers. If I wear the coat with the trousers, I'm more likely to be wearing it with a v-neck sweater, the waistcoat, or just a shirt. If you need a tweed jacket to go over a heavy sweater, maybe it should be an odd one. A suit can be warmed up with a wool layer underneath, a sweater, then an outer coat; the only reason for cutting it to accommodate a vary heavy sweater seems to be so that the jacket can be worn in very cold weather with nothing over it, to allow for movement, such as when shooting or fishing.

In fact, from the point of view of functionality and sheer tweed extravagance, I have started daydreaming about a 'tweed super suit' to cover all eventualities; in six-pieces:

-full Norfolk jacket, cut to accommodate a heavy sweater, for serious outdoor use
-classic three-button single breasted jacket, cut to go over a waistcoat and light to medium sweater, no action back
-waistcoat, as described
-trousers, as described
-breeks, as described
-cap

Best of luck with the suit, I hope you will keep us updated!

[Mr Hillier]

A quick update for those who followed this thread...

I have had this suit about a year now. I have worn the jacket a lot, the trousers and waistcoat very little. There are reasons for that, which I will go on to elucidate....

Firstly, the jacket. It has been a very useful jacket, and as Ed Hayes predicted very early on, I often use the jacket instead of a topcoat. It is warm enough for the coldest British weather, with an appropriate sweater underneath.

There have been one or two problems, as I have mentioned, the lining was not big enough to take account of the movement in the back, and the seams started splitting within a few weeks. I have had the lining let out, and it is better, but the lining will not last nearly as long as it should. Also, the tab collar arrangement never worked, and I requested a longer tab from the original tailor. The tab that was sent to me was a disgrace. I could have sewn the buttonholes better myself. So, in the end, I removed the buttons from behind the lapel, and we have now abandoned the idea of a tab collar.

The main reason for not wearing the suit more as a suit is simply that the trousers are too tight. Though I did stress in the commissioning stages that comfort was everything, there is simply not enough movement in the trousers. I remember when the tailor was measuring me for the trousers telling the tailor that he could easily make the trousers too tight, but it would be very hard for him to make them too loose. He stopped dead and looked at me for a few seconds, and I thought the point had gone home, but it seems not.

So, what are the takeaways?

Firstly, I think I was naive about the capability of this particular tailor, and more importantly, his willingness to engage in this type of project. The tailor is one of the two or three Hong Kong tailors most discussed on this board, obviously not WW Chan, and this wasn't my first garment from him. I think he probably makes a decent business suit, but looking back, I think he was dragging his feet with this suit. The catchphrase of the gentleman in question during the process was, 'Mr Hillier, we don't cut corners...'. However, I don't think the construction of the suit lives up to this. The waistcoat has a fused interlining, surely not necessary with this weight of fabric, and the lapels are machine-stitched, in contrast to the past garments myself and my brother have had for this tailor. And the there was the replacement collar tab... I won't post pictures, but it was a disaster, and its message came across loud and clear. And of course, no-one thought through the issue of the lining and the shoulder pleats. The tailor quite possibly never considered the actual function of the pleats.

Secondly, and this is always the case, the takeaway is, think about what you want and why you want it. I have about ten suits and two topcoats of this quality, all of which met some perceived need or desire. The only one which is really showing wear is a mid-blue two button SB, partly because being the simplest, it has been worn the most, and possibly because it is the only one made of Italian cloth, and may not be so hard-wearing. Now, however, if I could trade tall of them for a blue suit, a grey suit, a tweed jacket, a blue blazer, and one good blue double-breasted topcoat, I would do.

Thirdly, thinking of the appropriate specification of a country tweed suit, the one thing I might think more about is the size of the jacket and the shoulder pleats. This jacket is cut big enough to go over a heavy fisherman's rib sweater, and the shoulder pleats are very handy for such things as cycling. However, those might be features better put on an odd jacket. Just something to think about. And make sure the trousers are big enough!!!

[OxfordDon]

Very good point on cutting the jacket for bulkier undergarments. I often wear pretty fine knit sweaters under my tweed jackets in the city, but they don't always fit the bill in more casual settings.