First bespoke suit - observations sought

[whittaker]

I'm commissioning my first bespoke suit. A tremendously exciting enterprise, which I would not have braved without reading the wise counsel at londonlounge. I am eager to get my first project as elegant as I can and have a few queries. Apologies in advance for any naive questions but I am trying to learn as much as I can for this first bespoke suit.

The project is to make an autumn/winter SB suit. Consequently I've selected a lovely 13-oz Holland & Sherry charcoal grey worsted for that staple, "wear-anywhere" suit. I have other projects in planning so I'm using this commission to test the craftsmanship of a recommended tailor.

At today's second fitting I've asked for an inch more at the waist of the trousers. I've also requested that the waist of the coat be "taken out" (technical vocab. lacking) at the back to eliminate some "creasing" at the back and that the coat be given more space at the front to accommodate wallet etc.

The tailor has suggested I "pop in" to pick up the suit in a few days and apologised for his expected absence. Having reflected on my second fitting I think the sleeve length needs some further attention (Flusser has me obsessed with this) so plan to return when he is present.

Reflecting further, one of he lapels does not lie flat with the coat. Is this likely to be an ironing issue or an aspect I ought to address before taking receipt of the suit? Can anyone explain this concept of " lapel roll", which I am finding hard to grasp?

A further plea for information concerns the neck area. The collar of the coat curves smoothly around the back of the neck whilst standing normally. When I shrug my shoulders (as I do frequently ) the back of the neck area rides up by no more than three-quarters of an inch. Is this acceptable or should I do something to "flatten" this out?

Also I requested "higher" armholes, which have been delivered. What I lack is an understanding of how much movement is acceptable in the chest and shoulder area. All counsel appreciated.

Thanks,
Anthony

[manton]

At today's second fitting I've asked for an inch more at the waist of the trousers. I've also requested that the waist of the coat be "taken out" (technical vocab. lacking) at the back to eliminate some "creasing" at the back and that the coat be given more space at the front to accommodate wallet etc.

If the creasing at the back is caused by a balance issue, then easing the coat along the side seams ("letting it out") won't fix it. Just a thought.

The tailor has suggested I "pop in" to pick up the suit in a few days and apologised for his expected absence. Having reflected on my second fitting I think the sleeve length needs some further attention (Flusser has me obsessed with this) so plan to return when he is present.

I too am paranoid about sleeve length. You might ask the tailor that he not cut the buttonholes until you see the sleeves one more time. Wear your best fitting shirt.

Reflecting further, one of he lapels does not lie flat with the coat. Is this likely to be an ironing issue or an aspect I ought to address before taking receipt of the suit? Can anyone explain this concept of " lapel roll", which I am finding hard to grasp?

"Roll" refers to the curve or arch of a lapel back over the coat body. Lapels should not be folded, creased and pressed flat like trouser cuffs. They should "roll" back over the coat front, with their outer edge only gently resting on the coat front.

So when you say that the lapel "does not lie flat", if you mean the lapel is not pressed flat, that is good. If you mean that the lapel edge (especially in the upper reaches) does not touch the coat body, that is bad.

A further plea for information concerns the neck area. The collar of the coat curves smoothly around the back of the neck whilst standing normally. When I shrug my shoulders (as I do frequently ) the back of the neck area rides up by no more than three-quarters of an inch. Is this acceptable or should I do something to "flatten" this out?

The very best tailors make coats whose collars barely move off the neck no matter what do you, short of vigorous calisthenics. A mere shrug should not cause the collar to rise, ideally.

Also I requested "higher" armholes, which have been delivered. What I lack is an understanding of how much movement is acceptable in the chest and shoulder area. All counsel appreciated.

There should be fullness built into the chest and shoulder areas to accomodate normal movement. Your movement should be largely within that fullness, so that the lay of the coat is not affected.

[whittaker]

Manton

Thank you for that sage advice.

I too am paranoid about sleeve length. You might ask the tailor that he not cut the buttonholes until you see the sleeves one more time. Wear your best fitting shirt.

The sleeve buttonholes have already been cut. In order to preserve the balance I suspect it may be necessary to raise one sleeve from the shoulder. Wise counsel I have extracted from a similar discussion in another LL post.

So when you say that the lapel "does not lie flat", if you mean the lapel is not pressed flat, that is good. If you mean that the lapel edge (especially in the upper reaches) does not touch the coat body, that is bad.

Ah. Finally I understand "roll" and immediately can see why it is desirable in an elegant lapel. On this occasion (if I am recalling correctly, there was so much to remember) one of the lapel edges does not touch the coat body. I will need to ensure this is resolved.

The very best tailors make coats whose collars barely move off the neck no matter what do you, short of vigorous calisthenics. A mere shrug should not cause the collar to rise, ideally.

I shall attend to this closely when I have my third fitting. My tailor, I suspect, normally manages in two fittings. Today I confirmed a third fitting and detailed the areas where I thought further work is necessary. He is very accommodating about ensuring I am delighted with all aspects before accepting the finished article.

[whittaker]

I'm delighted to say that I've now collected my first bespoke suit, made by Peter at Sam Arkus and his cutter Agnello. I'll post some pictures over the weekend and would appreciate an honest critique of what Peter and I have created. For my part, I am pleased that I have been able to take what I've learnt here and complete a project that I would not have dared to undertake six months ago.

Sam Arkus are now working on a couple of pairs of 13oz flannel trousers for me in charcoal grey and a mid-tone grey. They will be perfect for the autumn/winter. I'm also planning an autumn/winter navy suit in 13oz worsted.

[Nexus]

That's very good news to hear! It would be great to see the pictures. I'm really interested in the work of "off the row" tailors, like Arkus.

[whittaker]

I'll post the pictures as soon as I can synchronise daytime diaries with my better half. I'd prefer her to take the images so the suit can be seen on its intended wearer, rather than on a hanger.

To my eye, Arkus made a fine suit but what I lack is a Savile Row benchmark. Opinions therefore will be highly appreciated.

[Trilby]

I believe you were wearing this suit at our meeting in London. It certainly looked very good.

[whittaker]

I believe you were wearing this suit at our meeting in London. It certainly looked very good.

Trilby: Thank you.

I'll get some pictures up this weekend.

[Nexus]

I believe you were wearing this suit at our meeting in London. It certainly looked very good.

Trilby: Thank you.

I'll get some pictures up this weekend.

Would be great!
Maybe you can also contribute to my discussion about Off-the-Row tailors.

[whittaker]

I've now posted some photographs here. As stated earlier, this is my first bespoke venture. I enjoyed the process and obtained a suit I like to wear. Perhaps bravely, I went "off-row", achieving a suit for about half the cost of say, Poole & Co.

Opinions gladly sought. The questions I have are:

• (1) Peter at Sam Arkus suggested I wear the suit half a dozen times, then see if any areas need to be tweaked. Now I've worn the suit 4 times, are there any obvious modifications that would improve the suit?

• (2) Would I get a much better suit, worth spending twice the amount on, by going to a Savile Row tailor?

• (3) Are the sleeves short enough? With some shirts that fit well, I see half an inch of cuff. With others that fit well, I see none. With others, there is too much cuff.

Thank you in advance for any assistance.

[manton]

are there any obvious modifications that would improve the suit?

Okay, keep in mind two things: 1) I mean this in a spirit of helpful criticism, I am not trying to troll or insult or make trouble. 2) I am not a tailor but merely a consumer, so everything I say might be wrong. That said:

In the third photo (front/side view), the fronts appear to cross below the waist button. They should at most hang down straight but separate and distinct. Ideally, they should be open a bit, forming a narrow upside down "V". The photo suggests to me that the front-to-back balance is off; the fronts are too short with respect to the back.

What gives me pause is that, from the back view, it appears to be that the back balance is short. That would explain the diagonal folds running from the waist up over the blades. It would also explain the way the vents appear to be opening. It is unusual for a coat to have both front and back too short. Usually, if the balance is off, one is too long and the other is too short. But that's the way it looks to me.

I'm not sure how fixable that is. I think there would have to be a considerable amount of inlay at the shoulder seams to lengthen both front and back (and it would have to be done from the top).

(2) Would I get a much better suit, worth spending twice the amount on, by going to a Savile Row tailor?

I think you would get a better suit. Would it be worth twice as much money? That's something only you can answer.

I would point out a few other things I noticed. The sleeves appear to be pretty wide and ample. I think some more taper would suit you better. I would like to see the breast pocket angled downward (the low side on the inside) rather than straight across your chest. Ditto on the vest welt pockets. I think a six button (five to button, one idle at the bottom) would suit you better. Five looks a little truncated. The pleats on the trousers appear to be opening. The trousers bag in back, which suggests that you have forward hips. The trouser back part pattern should probably be lowered in back. That would clear that up and establish a smooth rear line.

These are all things that can be worked through, probably with this tailor. It will take a couple more suits, though, and some patience. This one already has a lot going for it. The fit in the shoulders and chest looks good. So does the coat length. So does the left-right balance. So does the fit of the vest. The decisions you have to make, I suppose, are: 1) Do you think this tailor can get better with the right kind of client input? and 2) Are you willing to spend more knowing that it may take one or two or three more suits to iron out all these quirks?

3) Are the sleeves short enough? With some shirts that fit well, I see half an inch of cuff. With others that fit well, I see none. With others, there is too much cuff.

This is a maddening problem. I would like to see some "linen" in the front/side view, and I don't, so I am tempted to say that the sleeves are too long. Yet they look good in relation to your hand. So perhaps the armhole of the coat is pulling the shirt sleeve up from the top.

[whittaker]

Okay, keep in mind two things: 1) I mean this in a spirit of helpful criticism, I am not trying to troll or insult or make trouble. 2) I am not a tailor but merely a consumer, so everything I say might be wrong.

Thank you very much for your commentary, Manton. It comprises just the detailed and experienced observation that I require. Apart from the general camaraderie of the LL, I am here to learn. I did not expect to achieve perfection on my first experiment with the bespoke apparel arts.

In the third photo (front/side view), the fronts appear to cross below the waist button. They should at most hang down straight but separate and distinct. Ideally, they should be open a bit, forming a narrow upside down "V". The photo suggests to me that the front-to-back balance is off; the fronts are too short with respect to the back.

It took me a few tests to understand this. In fact, I tried every coat in my wardrobe on. You are right. There should be more distinction there.

What gives me pause is that, from the back view, it appears to be that the back balance is short. That would explain the diagonal folds running from the waist up over the blades. It would also explain the way the vents appear to be opening. It is unusual for a coat to have both front and back too short. Usually, if the balance is off, one is too long and the other is too short. But that's the way it looks to me.

That may not be as perplexing as it seems. I've looked at the coat's back again. I suspect I was not standing normally in the photograph. When I do, I get a few folds around the shoulder blades, which I think is required to allow some movement. The folds around the waist at the back disappear when I assume a normal relaxed pose. The vents opened slightly when I attended the second fitting but this was resolved and do not open now.

If this is correct, then as you suggested it is the front that is too short compared to the back. I will take this point up with the tailor and see if we can work on improving the balance.

I would point out a few other things I noticed. The sleeves appear to be pretty wide and ample. I think some more taper would suit you better.

Yes. I can see this. A useful observation that I shall note for my next bespoke suit.

I would like to see the breast pocket angled downward (the low side on the inside) rather than straight across your chest. Ditto on the vest welt pockets.

Yes. Yes. That would have been very elegant. Again, a good note for the next project.

I think a six button (five to button, one idle at the bottom) would suit you better. Five looks a little truncated.

This is a lesson learnt for me rather than poor tailoring. Peter made the waistcoat I requested. I think you are quite right though.

The pleats on the trousers appear to be opening. The trousers bag in back, which suggests that you have forward hips. The trouser back part pattern should probably be lowered in back. That would clear that up and establish a smooth rear line.

Yes. Another one for me to take up with the tailor next week. This is worth addressing to better balance the suit.

1) Do you think this tailor can get better with the right kind of client input? and 2) Are you willing to spend more knowing that it may take one or two or three more suits to iron out all these quirks?

Question 1 is the prime issue. I suspect that this tailor could take on board this feedback and come up with an even better suit. My choice is to try a further project with this tailor and see if, between us, we can achieve an improved suit. Alternatively I can go to, say, Poole & Co., and obtain a, hopefully, better benchmark to work from for future projects with this tailor or others. Which course of action sounds more promising?

I don't, so I am tempted to say that the sleeves are too long. Yet they look good in relation to your hand. So perhaps the armhole of the coat is pulling the shirt sleeve up from the top.

I'm currently having some bespoke shirts made. On the basis that they should be a "perfect" fit, I'll wait until they are delivered and I can wear them with this suit. That should provide a better guide than my random selection of RTW shirts, some that give me cuff, come not.

Manton, I am so appreciative that you've taken the time to offer me your experienced assistance. I still remain delighted with the suit but am looking forward to each bespoke suit being better than the one before.

[alden]

Whittaker

Well I have the advantage of having seen you in the suit, so I can affirm that it looked very nice.

Fit :

As Manton has observed you have a front balance problem that is causing the crossing of the front quarters and the kicking out of the front in general. The front wants to come forward and it can't, its blocked. This likely can be adjusted a bit. I don't see a back balance problem and feel that the pulling in the back is due to the front's problem. If you solve the balance probem in front it should make the back look better as well.

You need more room through the hips in the trousers and you need to have your tailor remove about 3/4 inch fabric under the wasitband seam to raise the back of the trouser up. Imagine your trousers as a circle. You want to remove the cloth from the back half circumference of the circle. This will improve the drape of the trousers. Remember the back of the trouser is always higher than the front.

Armholes might be a bit higher.

You could shorten your sleeves a bit.

Styling:

I would suggest you think about raising the pocket and vent height and buttoning point about 3/4 ". This will give the jacket a better line and be more flattering to your figure. Open front quarters as well will give you better line.

You could do with a more natural shoulder jacket. (I'll bet you thought you might hear that?)

Overall, I thought the suit looked very good. You might work with your tailor to make a few changes in the course of the next suit. After we take a look at those results it will easier to know if another SR choice would be appropriate. Its an honest first effort that should be rewarded with another order.

Cheers

Michael

[whittaker]

Well I have the advantage of having seen you in the suit, so I can affirm that it looked very nice.

Thank you. It certainly feels more comfortable to wear than any suit I have purchased "off the rail"

I will see what Peter can do about the front balance and talk to him about modifying the trousers.

Armholes might be a bit higher.

You could do with a more natural shoulder jacket. (I'll bet you thought you might hear that?)

I suspect both of the above lie outside of what is available from Sam Arkus although we can try to go further on the next project. With this suit, at my urging, he made the armholes as high as he has ever made them. I'd love a more natural shoulder and have already discussed this with Peter. I don't expect "spalla camicia" though.

You could shorten your sleeves a bit.

I'm going to experiment with some different shirts and see whether a quarter inch or so shorter works. However, I wore a Kilgour shirt on Friday that fits well on the sleeve and I was embarrassed to be showing too much cuff.

I would suggest you think about raising the pocket and vent height and buttoning point about 3/4 ". This will give the jacket a better line and be more flattering to your figure. Open front quarters as well will give you better line.

I'll give this some thought. The vent height already feels quite high. Should it come as high as my "natural waist"? You are right about the buttoning point. These would seem quite complex modifications though. Again I'll talk them over when I see my tailor next week.

Overall, I thought the suit looked very good. You might work with your tailor to make a few changes in the course of the next suit. After we take a look at those results it will easier to know if another SR choice would be appropriate. Its an honest first effort that should be rewarded with another order.

Thank you again. That is my sentiment too. Peter has some fabulous Scabal 13oz fabric that would be ideal for the navy SB 3-piece I plan as my next project. First, though, I'll work through the modifications on this suit.

Thanks, Michael, for the invaluable observations.