You get what you pay for but what do you pay for?

[kamil]

Lxlloyd, I suggest reading the following article by a highly respected economic blogger: http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot. ... cheap.html
As a citizen of Poland, I assure you that million of my compatriots have benefited, rather than having been victimized, by large multinationals moving some of their manufacturing facilities to my relatively low-wage country.

[lxlloyd]

Lxlloyd, I suggest reading the following article by a highly respected economic blogger: http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot. ... cheap.html
As a citizen of Poland, I assure you that million of my compatriots have benefited, rather than having been victimized, by large multinationals moving some of their manufacturing facilities to my relatively low-wage country.

I did note that I was oversimplifying, and that it is not a simple process of victimisation. (however, it is true that they are valuing the product of the work at a cheaper price whilst claiming the same quality...) Globalisation is a hugely complicated issue.. (in fact I have already read many similar articles to this and I do think that fair trade is largely damaging and simply a way of alleviating our guilty consciences) .. Industry coming to a developing economy is a huge boost and a game-changer. I am by no means a protectionist and foreign manufacture is clearly a neccesary part of our global economy... butI just also noted that in most of the real life examples that I myself have experienced, in this precise sector, it hasn't been a dominantly positive set of exchanges. And those are in "luxury" companies that can afford to pay higher prices for manufacture... luxury companies offering a similar service to the Savile row tailor selling made to measure. I the matter of luxury textile/garment manufacture, there are certain specifics, as with any industry, and those specifics change with every level of quality and every individual case. Dismissing clothing for being made in china or india or any developing country is foolish; in many cases, the quality can be superior to what we could produce ourselves, since we have lost the skillsets. However, I have been on the internal side of similar to this particular instance's exchanges and they made me uncomfortable as an individual. (In my case the reasoning was more around the excessive waste of resources, the pollution and sanitation levels of those factories, the excessive use of shipping for multiple prototypes, the fact that designs were being stolen and sold to rivals who were using the same facilities so we had to pull entire lines regularly (which, admittedly, would not be a problem with a bespoke suit, especially given that the suit is a fairly standardised formula), the fact that performing corrections was rendered into an ordeal and various other compromises for cost cutting that damaged the quality of life of the workers, the environment or the quality of the garments) For that reason, in this case, I would advise the first option.

I have worked in manual labour as a deckhand/sailor (rendered more taxing, admittedly, bu my gender), and I now work longer (significantly longer) hours (admittedly voluntarily, given that I am a student) of 21 hours a day, with about an hours break (so 20), largely sewing on industrial machines, handsewing or pattern cutting. The romanticisation of farming and sailing and other primary industry is silly.... Since they are brutal and hard work. I live a much more comfortable life even with my ridiculous hours sitting at a machine (although yes, the sun and the sea was an improvement on a dust filled studio and technically I was paid as a sailor and am not as a designer; even when working for companies (yay unpaid internships). But sitting at an industrial sewing machine is not the most taxing thing in the universe, even if i do have a stiff back and rarely see sunlight. (we really need to replace our wrongly sized wooden stools)

Also, Carbon footprint/transport was mentioned. For an individual suit, and not a shipload of ready to wear, I think the balance is skewed.... shipping 1000 suits from one country to another is quite different to shipping just the one, using even a vaguely a similar amount of fuel. I think that with such small quantities, it is an irresponsible waste of resources. AAgain, personal oopinion and situations may vary.

Also, I would note that Poland is considered as relatively "expensive" for manufacturing within the textile industry, although perceived to have the advantage of lower transport costs to western Europe and quality levels consistent with an established industry. Eastern Europe tends to be advised to designers for high-end and luxury goods. Having just been at zoom, (part of premiere vision, where the agents for the production facilities battle it out for contracts) and sourcing for the manufacture of garments, i can assure you that poland is significantly more expensive than other countries (and less than some others). again, this is personal and anecdotal experience; but my professors worked in exactly the sort of field we are talking about for significant amounts of tie and are respected and connected enough to manage to get their students meetings with some of the most significant figureheads of the industry.

So yes, complicated issue. But, based on my experience, I wouldn't go with the foreign manufacture in this particular instance. Largely because of the small quantities, also because I think that supporting a young talented cutter is preferable to an established tailor essentially running a secondary line. It's all personal opinion.

[Tutumulut]

Dear Carless

Thank you very much for opening this thread - it is providing some very interesting views for novices like me.

Dear lxlloyd

Thank you for sharing your diverse experience and views on outsourcing, offshoring and what have you. I've received garment technology education many moons ago. It seems not much has changed apart from perhaps the names of the countries. It makes one think. Much appreciated.

T

[Mark Seitelman]

* * * In a costless world I would agree with Mark Seitelman's advice and try to compare the four tailors with the same commission. But you don't have to do that. At least not all at once. * * *

But my suggestion is the most scientific and objective! In the interest of sartorial art and science the poster should follow my plan exactly so as to arrive an objective answer! Plus you'll have a lifetime supply of blue suits.

Seriously, the poster has to come to his own decision after weighing all the factors. E.g., price, fit, workmanship, reliability, the personality of the owner, the premises, convenience, etc.

I think that in the end, it's an emotional decision. The personality of the shop may be the deciding factor.

Good luck.

[Carless]

Thanks again to everyone who contributed, it's certainly helped to clarify my thoughts. I'm minded to take a "risk" (not that it's a risk as such, in that I'll end up with a unique item of clothing!) with A and see how this goes; I'm very persuaded by the argument that young talent should be supported and, if this goes well, I'll have started what should hopefully be a long and fruitful relationship, and the money saved can go towards more diverse projects (or even a fully bespoke suit from C!). That said, I had a couple of other suggestions made to me, which I'll explore. And, finally, to those of you who were worried my old tailor was going to be left in the lurch, fear not, I suspect I'll still get business wear made by him.

Best wishes to all,

Carless

[Costi]

Dear Carless,

With respect to the title of your topic – you pay for what you appreciate most. When you are really happy with what you get, what you pay for it doesn’t matter all that much. As you note, there is spread of (only) 20% from the top to the bottom of your selection of tailors. That is not so much, not even in absolute terms.
Now, if you really liked “C” and were convinced their MTM suits would make you happy, I don’t think the 20% extra over “A” would deter you from going to them. But do you?...
On the other hand, paying “A” 20% less than “C” doesn’t mean you get less. You get something else. If you like it, don’t let the feeling that you could get more by paying more (and still afford it) ruin your pleasure.
“B” sounds a lot like your current tailor, doesn’t it? Exchanging rusk for zwieback?...
I believe in talent more than in experience. Experience without talent is not much use in my opinion. Talent with a growing experience can yield better results. Besides, what you mention (and therefore like) about “A” is that he is “young”. If you value this, it means you need it, or else it would not be a factor in your evaluation.
The question is not which of the three tailors is the best (even names would not help much here), but who is the best FOR YOU. Which one you would be enjoying most. Let this guide you rather than prices, which have little relevance within a 20% spread.


We all like to think that we have choices and we also like to think that this is what freedom is about. So instead of going straight for what we really like, we look for options, alternatives and we start analyzing and evaluating each to death, rather than follow the gut feeling.
From “C”, what you would really like to get is a full bespoke suit, but not quite yet. You put in “B” to calibrate your scale, who is the alter ego of your current tailor. What I feel you really want is “A”, but you’re afraid he might not be up to your expectations for lack of extensive experience. And you won’t know until you’ve tried him, but your feeling is that he’s got what it takes. And you need a change!
“To be free is to feel unable to do otherwise” (that’s from an orchestra conductor). So you are free. Free from the need to back your choice with arguments. Free from the need to compare and weigh pros and cons. Free to go straight for what you like. Go for it with full enthusiasm and don’t keep the other “choices” in the back of your mind, or you’ll find yourself saying “I should have made a different choice” at the first obstacle – and that won’t help you overcome it.

[pur_sang]

We all like to think that we have choices and we also like to think that this is what freedom is about. So instead of going straight for what we really like, we look for options, alternatives and we start analyzing and evaluating each to death, rather than follow the gut feeling.

I totally agree with Costi.

To Carless, I will simply go for something that you most desire, which at this point, is probably a bespoke suit from that famous Savile Row tailor. Now, because that might be a little out of reach at the moment, is it so wrong to try their MTM program for now? To get a feel of what their house do? Honestly, there is every chance that you will be disappointed with the MTM in style or fit, if so, there is probably little value in trying their bespoke. Speaking from experience, I went to get a bespoke suit from a house that I desired and thought cannot go wrong, but was a little disappointed with the results.

Bespoke suits are really an experiment, they are not necessarily always better than RTW or MTM.

[Carless]

As an update to this thread, I received my first sports coat from "A" about a month ago. An interesting experience and I'm very happy with the end result, though there were a few issues along the way. The positives: "A" was very easy to work with, came up with some excellent suggestions, which I took, and, as I said, the finished article has worked out extremely well, it's very close to what I imagined when I started this commission (in intent, if not in detail). The negatives: there were some serious fit issues along the way that needed correcting (and were done) but I'd imagine the pattern still has some way to evolve, plus the process was quite slow. Batting away from home has made me appreciate what skill/experience my old tailor has (who I haven't abandoned)! Bottom line: I'm going to stick with "A" for a second commission and see how things evolve, and I'm very pleased to be supporting young talent (and being able to pocket the change), but a friend recently asked me for a recommendation as to a tailor for their first bespoke suit, and I sent him to my old tailor...

Thanks again for the advice here!

[hectorm]

I received my first sports coat from "A" about a month ago. An interesting experience and I'm very happy with the end result,....but a friend recently asked me for a recommendation as to a tailor for their first bespoke suit, and I sent him to my old tailor...

Dear Carless,
do you think that your old tailor wouldn´t have been capable of coming up with a jacket as good as the one "A" was able to deliver?

[Carless]

A good question! And, actually, no... because it's not better/worse, it's just different stylistically, and the process by which we arrived at the finished coat was quite different too (e.g. the interaction and the suggestions that were put forward), so I genuinely think that this is unique. I could, of course, have gone to my old tailor with the same intent, but I would have ended up with something different/more conservative, and the aim of this little adventure was to try something different, so it was a success in that regard. I sent my friend (first time bespoke) to my old tailor because he's a completely safe pair of hands, this has considerable value (for my friend as well as our friendship!).

[Costi]

Carless, good experience with A (I see that you don't regret it) and good advice for your friend, too!

[BAO]

Option A seems to be the one I would take. Without supporting younger cutters, bespoke will simply become more and more expensive as the new blood dries up.

And if you ended up keeping friendly relations with both tailors, you could work with A even after your more conservative tailor has retired. Supporting a tailor early in his work will also hopefully endear you to him slightly. haha. If you think he has a good eye, passion (or perfectionism) and dedication, then that certainly counts for something, especially as i'm assuming he's undergone some apprenticeship. if you saw the product of his work that should be your evaluation. No doubt there aree some tailors who;ve been working longer than the masters of their craft, but who will never measure up... there is always a degree of talent and dedication that throws in variation. from what you say, he has both. You say you're of fairly average build... in that case, the advantage of the second option over the first is diminished, whereas if you had a hinky shoulder.... perhaps it would be more relevant.

One of my teachers used to repeatedly point out that a French hand was no more inherently talented than an Indian one... on the other hand option c involves a heavy carbon footprint, and people valuing the work of those workers as less than those of their in house workers whilst at the same time claiming equality of quality.... a logic loop that takes some twists to follow. If they are genuinely claiming that the quality is of their exacting standard.... then they are exploiting their disadvantaged labourforce. (Although this is clearly a simplification of the ethics of the situation. better to have a low salary than none at all) Either way, I find there is something of a distasteful nature going on.... I have worked in luxury clothing companies as a design intern, and have professors that have specialised in sourcing production... and even if the garments were excellently made in China or India or Eastern Europe (where the foreign manufacturing of luxury garments is concentrated), there was never a situation in which the process was... well... not in the dirtier grey area of morality at some point. (even if it is the indulgence of flying your suit to India and back for several fittings, or even just the one time...) There is always a price for lowering prices... be it in quality of product or quality of life.

The 'Dismal Science' calls this externalities and has been a major component in the pricing of pollution via caps and taxes on cigarettes and alcohol. Externalities are sometimes painful to discover. Since driving by a large 'industrial' cattle farm in the US some years ago and several shocking revelations on the treatment of animals in abattoirs I have sworn off eating meat in restaurants unless I know the cattle is locally and ethically raised and slaughtered. It was also a motivation for me to start hunting for the meat eaten at home. Sartorially speaking, keeping things 'in-house' or at least knowing there is a transparent supply chain is a major reason why I went with my own tailor. Whenever possible, I try and determine the source of what I buy and bring into my home.

Good luck to the OP with his choice and outcome.

[lxlloyd]

BAO

Transparent supply chain is fundamental to the philosophy behind the company where I might be Interning. (I'm considering the move to Antwerp).

http://www.honestby.com/en/page/16/about.html
http://www.honestby.com/en/news/5/post- ... th-bp.html

[BAO]

lxlloyd

What an interesting concept - transparency as a value differentiation. I hope it takes off and your internship is a successful one. Keep us posted on how it turns out.

Cheers and good luck!

[lxlloyd]

lxlloyd

What an interesting concept - transparency as a value differentiation. I hope it takes off and your internship is a successful one. Keep us posted on how it turns out.

Cheers and good luck!

The working environment is great and I can vouch that they stick to their guns when it comes to sourcing ethically. Down to the dishwashing liquid!

In terms of pattern cutting it's technically challenging which is always interesting (I'm certainly not there to fetch people coffee) and actually, we're only sourcing one new fabric for this collection... the rest is being cut from our house's sustainable archives (which means that we're also considering usage fairly carefully). Incidentally, if anyone knows any sustainably produced/traditional/organic mills for tartan in Scotland, we're on the look out for someone who can produce a black watch tartan of good quality. I know I knew a family fun mill that was doing things the old fashioned way (and therefore it was all of the above) but I think they were either absorbed or folded because I can't track them down anywhere.

We have some beautiful harris tweeds in amongst the bolts. nom.

I shall stop tangenting.