The more you know...

"The brute covers himself, the rich man and the fop adorn themselves, the elegant man dresses!"

-Honore de Balzac

lxlloyd
Posts: 99
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:23 am
Contact:

Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:01 pm

zeitgeist wrote:
mmkn2 wrote:...and that men's bespoke is better thought of in the light of women's haute couture - that is, a garment created specifically for one person by the maker.

- M
Not quite. I concede that the craft aspect of haute couture is similar to that of bespoke (or what we like to think is bespoke craftsmanship), but if my mother's experiences are anything to go by, in women's haute couture the process is more akin to MTM. Measurements are taken, and the preexisting example is then reproduced with the necessary alterations to fit the customer.

Once in a while the designer may concede a change of fabric or trim as per the customer's wishes, but to alter the 'cut' or overall silhouette is AFAIK uncommon.
This is not entirely true. Many of my proffessors work in the ateliers and they do alter cut, silhouette and colour. (Although often clients will go and request that which they've seen on the runway). The seamstresses at Dior, for example, altered the collarline of a dior dress to.... well to put it bluntly... to give the optical illusion of symmetry in a friends bust. (No woman has a naturally even one; to simply adjust the measurements would throw off the dress and so a completely new cut had to be made because it altered too many lines because of the garments complicated construction.)

First, as Shredder noted, the term Haute Couture is grossly abused. It is infact a protected designation, the rights to which belong to members of "The Chambre Syndicale de la Haute Couture", whose membership is reviewed annually and dedicated by the French Ministry of Industry. There are 12 official members currently, and about 7 'guest' members, which include young designers who are invited to show in Couture week becasue they have a quality that is elevated and show potential. There are also 5 'correspondant members'; Foreign designers such as Valentino, who cannot qualify as full scale members of the association because their ateliers are not Paris-based.

The couture houses show both pret-a-porter and couture shows (Since couture loses money, it's continuation is funded by perfume sales, accessories sales from the PAP divisions and the support of the french government who wants to support the Paris-based ateliers). HC is a dying industry because the ateliers which they rely on (e.g. lesage embroidery) are aging, and basically have no apprentices left, or not enough to support all of the houses... essentially the knowledge is being lost. (And yet to qualify as couture, everything must be maid by hand, including, for example, the braids on a chanel jacket are made by one Madame Pouzieux, a no-nonsense 75-year-old who has been weaving Chanel's trim since 1947 from her farm, is the only person in the world that know how to do it, especially because she invented the machine herself and does it in between making the Chanel rep wait while she bails her hay or looks after the cows.... (you can see her in a documentary called Signé Chanel, a rather fascinating look at the seamstresses of the atelier itself, not focusing on 'the Kaiser' but rather on the seamstresses and the process of making the garments entirely by hand). There are an estimated 200 true couture clients in the world, and among them there are very few that are public. An interesting documentary is "The secret world of haute couture"

But essentially, the Maisons will have the PAP and the haute couture collections. It is true that a client can go in and order the piece from the couture collection, in which measurements are taken and the show dress will be made up for the client. This is still designated as haute couture, because it still fulfills the designated requirements (Made in Paris, permanant atelier of 15 or more work(wo)men, entirely handsewn/embroidered) However, because of the way these dresses are constructed, an entirely new pattern will be constructed... you cannot grade the original dress' measurements more than two dress sizes. (especially given the fluctuations in actual women's bust waist hip ratios) The cut and colour can also be altered at the client's discretion. This process is is, as Zeitgeist said, somewhat akin to made to measure at a very high quality level. (Although the pattern would have to be made up completely from scratch, not just altered, because of the woman's curves and the complicated nature of the patterns involved.) This is the main production output of the couture ateliers (although, given how small the client list this is not in significant numbers. It is growing though.)

However, above and beyond this service, there are clients who can commision garments from the houses on an individual basis. These garments will only be made once for that person (Possibly a double for the archives of the house) and only certain clients would have the power to do so. We as bystanders will never see these, especially given the secretive nature of the couturieur-client relationship, and the fact that most of the clients remain anonymous. Unless you happen to be at the event in person during which the client wore it. But there is the existence in haute couture of the entirely bespoke designed-for-one-person-alone garment. It's just so secretive that unless you know someone in the atelier, its existence is basically uncharted (except in the case of weddings).

I would really reccomend the Signé Chanel documentary. I'm not actually a fan of Chanel's aesthetic, but it really is an interesting look at the processes of the ateliers, and the seamstresses Madame Martine, Madame Cécile and Madame Laurence, who cut and sew and bloody their hands for the sake of a dress, are real gems.
Last edited by lxlloyd on Fri Aug 03, 2012 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
mmkn2
Posts: 80
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 3:55 am
Contact:

Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:33 pm

lxlloyd wrote:Signé Chanel
^ Thank you for that. Enriching.

- M
alden
Posts: 8210
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:58 am
Contact:

Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:40 am

lxlloyd

Great contribution. I have always thought there are about 2000 real customers of real bespoke tailoring in the world. So either men have ten times more interest in bespoke or they have fewer good options in fashion.

I think the challenges for the couture houses parallels that of tailoring houses, the lack of renewal from apprentices and the staggering loss of patrimoine.

I have been fortunate to know many of the secret craftsmen toiling away from their homes
at advanced ages to supply a know how only they possess to names like Chanel and Hermes. It is a great story that will probably be told too late as is often the case.

Do us the honor of showing some of your work. I know I speak for all the members when I say that we would be very interested.

Cheers

Michael
lxlloyd
Posts: 99
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:23 am
Contact:

Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:17 pm

I would suggest that it's due to the disparity in cost between bespoke tailoring and the equivalent in women's fashion. But another thing to consider is the market for women's shoes and accessories, which is the sector of the industry that supports (along with the licensing of perfumes and cosmetics) the entire womenswear industry. There is certainly a market for the custom handbag, which runs to the same price or more as bespeaking a suit.

The reason women spend more on shoes and handbags? I cannot speak for everyone, but I can wear the same pair of quality heels or the same well-made handbag repeatedly, in much the same way that a gentleman can with his bespoke tailoring. However, no matter the quality of the dress, I can only wear it on a certain number of occasions, and even most multi-purpose little black dresses vary in suitability for different functions. (And this is coming from someone who cares about "slow fashion" and buying quality garments and re-wearing them).

I suppose what I'm suggesting is that my Brother has had a lot more use out of his Meyer & Mortimer than I have of my Krizia cocktail dress, even if we attend a similar set of events and both live in major artistic capitals, both working in industries that require "dressing up". However, some nice heels or a handbag? with resoling and leather conditioning, I can imitate my grandmother and wear them for years on end. (To that end (my grandmother would say that) my best friend is my cobbler).

I would be happy to show my work if I could work out where would be appropriate.
Badden
Posts: 200
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:58 pm
Contact:

Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:30 pm

Haute couture is true bespoke, and is certainly not a made-to-measure product. The handwork in a haute coutre piece is staggering - if our SR bespoke suits take 70 hours to make, many couture pieces take 10x as long just for the embroidery. Puts our duds to shame.

I suggest LL members check out a great BBC documentary from a few years ago - "The Secret World of Haute Couture." The cost, handwork and attention to detail is simply amazing.
J.S. Groot
Posts: 344
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:33 am
Contact:

Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:26 am

Handwork, production time or attention to details, however laudable, doesn't make bespoke. That aside, I do not doubt that haute couture houses do accomodate bespeakers.

I second the recommandation for Signé Chanel. The peek into the world of Mme Pouzieux is worth it alone.
internationalist
Posts: 127
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2010 12:45 pm
Location: Europe
Contact:

Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:37 am

alden wrote:The creation of a personal style is the subject of this video:

http://dresswithstyle.com/2009/12/07/dr ... own-style/
Sorry
Because of its privacy settings, this video cannot be played here.
Post Reply
  • Information
  • Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 56 guests