Adjusting jacket opening below front buttons

"The brute covers himself, the rich man and the fop adorn themselves, the elegant man dresses!"

-Honore de Balzac

alden
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Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:36 am

Michael, I know you're right that it is not always that way in Italy. Every major Italian city now has its celebrity tailoring house, thanks in part to internet discussion; and so we get to watch how a house style develops. They have found fans from photos - usually very flamboyant photos - of their product out of context; and then they caricature the local tradition, to sell it to their new fanbase, gratefully tripling the prices for them. Their job becomes different, and a lot easier. And their product inevitably changes. Success makes them complacent; or perhaps they want to justify to themselves turning what was a tradition into a brand.
Excellent analysis.
The same must have happened in London a long time ago. I agree that it is laughable that most of Savile Row not only claims, but seems to believe, that they do things as they always have done. The pictures prove to us that they don't, but tailors, in desperation, see something different in the pictures. Most of the modern product is decidedly dowdy, and stuck in an angular '70s or '80s trend that I couldn't be comfortable in. They get away with that because of the brand. More of their customers need to be more demanding, and get over the prestige of the brand, for it to change. I am sure this site does its little bit to help that change!
A few years ago when SR houses were shutting their doors or changing hands every five minutes for lack of interest and clients, the LL helped bring them back out of respect for the trade, to save a heritage about to be lost. It is to be regretted that some of these houses today, flush with renewed success and commercial vigor, play childish games with the vulnerable new client instead of grooming the next generation for future success. Pitiful, human frailty and short sightedness on display once again. When they come whining the next time the shops are empty, we should remind them of these things.

There are still, thankfully, a lot of very nice things being made in and around the Row and we see examples of them here from Steed and others. But the main houses are truly stuck in a style funk.

Cheers
aston
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Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:07 pm

Interesting comments, Michael, and salient, as I have just read that a "leading" SR house is giving its name to a new range it has developed for...........Debenhams!!!!!

My blood runs cold.
C.Lee
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Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:00 am

alden wrote:... So the reality is that "house styles" are not the result of a century of tradition and excellence. They are the whim of the latest MD or head cutter. If he has good taste, the "house" will rock. If he doesn't, and few do, the house will have to rely on mean tricks like pulling the wings off vulnerable, new clients...

... Like you, I would have a great deal of problem adapting myself to the culture of the large houses. I consider myself very fortunate to have been able to avoid them most of my bespeaking career...
The discussion on large houses reminded me of my experiences with ready-to-wear and made-to-measure. The customer can play with lining, fabric and button choice, but has no say on form. Q: "Can I have patch pockets on my next order?" A: "I'm sorry, it can only be made with flapped pockets." Q: "But you have product on the floor with patch pockets." A: "Yes, but patch pockets are not available made-to-measure. Shall we proceed?"

That was my last interaction with a certain Italian luxury menswear brand. The romance was built over a decade. The relationship lasted no more than a few years.

Are the interactions with large houses any different, and truly bespoke in nature?
couch
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Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:50 am

I can only speak of my own relationship over several years (so far) with Henry Poole. One three-piece suit, one suit jacket, and two tweed odd jackets. I came there introduced by former member Collarmelton, having too recently paid the price for falling for the internet rep of a "Savile Row master tailor" whose name rhymes with barren demon. The MD and head cutter Philip Parker treated me very well, and made it clear he was out to restore my faith in the integrity of the Row. The resulting first suit (two of the three pieces) is visible in this thread along with comments on the several small things I asked to have adjusted in subsequent jackets. A successful first suit, I still think, especially given the limited guidance I was able to provide.

As I became more knowledgeable and better able to articulate my preferences, these have always been observed. There have been a couple of inexplicable slip-ups (odd sleeve length, etc.) that had to be corrected, but these were clearly the result of communications hitches among the different workers that didn't get caught in the quality control process rather than any resistance to my requests--and the slips were clearly as aggravating to the cutter as to me, and they were corrected without question or fuss. I made it a point to be respectful and to become friendly with everyone in the process that I could--guv'nor Simon Cundey, my cutters (Mr. Parker and subsequently Alex Cooke), various strikers, and the coatmaker, who was out for a while with a knee replacement. At the same time, thanks to knowledge gained here and from my more experienced friends, I was able to become quite specific in my requests and evaluations of fittings. Alex once said that he really enjoyed cutting for a customer who noticed details of fit, both to express sincere appreciation of things well executed and to give them a chance to adjust things if necessary through several fittings to achieve their best work. He said too many of their customers just wanted the suits quickly and didn't really know or care how they looked. "They might as well go down the street to Syms and save themselves a lot of money," he said (this was at a New York fitting rather than one of my London trips). It's true I never asked them to depart drastically from their basic style, but slightly more open quarters, slightly shorter skirt, hip pocket type and placement, button point, degree of rear drape, sleeve head treatment, lapel width and roll, trouser pleat depth, and other details were all varied at my request without any fuss. Of course, I discussed all these things with the cutter and explained my reasoning, and often benefited from his comments and suggestions as we arrived at a conclusion. The first suit also had really beautiful and quite finely stitched buttonholes, which I praised--and from that moment they always specified the specific finisher whose buttonhole stitching was the best available to them for subsequent orders. And on one occasion Alex ripped down and resewed the shoulder and neck seams on a finished jacket at his own insistence to improve the lay and height of the collar on my figuration after a "final" fit check in the hotel, re-pressed the jacket himself and let me return to the city two days later to collect it.

I should say that I made it clear very early on that while I valued and admired the requisite skill, workmanship, and fit of SR bespoke clothes (having had my first, a beautiful blazer, cut in the early '80s by John Kent at the old Hawes & Curtis), my means would never allow me to be a high-volume customer. As far as I can tell, that has never yet had a negative effect on how I've been treated. And now that I think of it, that first blazer that John cut for me, which served me for over twenty years until I couldn't fit in the shoulders any more, was another example of the kind of treatment one would want as a novice--I didn't know enough to say much more than that I wanted three buttons and a definite springy roll to the lapel. And he gave me a beautifully proportioned, classic, perfectly fitted garment (also with lovely sewing) with two fittings after the measuring-up appointment, all during a twelve-day stay in London (scheduled in advance).

I also should point out that a few years back, a friend of mine's finished suit was being shipped from Poole and ended up on a plane that happened to be at Heathrow during the transatlantic flight bomb scare. The airport was essentially turned upside down and the parcel never found. Poole simply remade the suit at their own expense, even though the loss was no fault of theirs. Granted, my friend was a regular customer--but still, that was handsomely done. It would be a much bigger loss for an independent tailor to swallow.

I'll conclude by saying that my intention in these comments is not to promote a particular firm or be a SR chauvinist, but simply to illustrate that it is still possible, at least in my experience, to develop a good working relationship in the larger firms. It's probably true that with several people working in the process (even when a customer is assigned the same cutter and coatmaker each time, as I've been) there's more room for slip-ups, but I've had both a quality-control issue and a misunderstood specification at Steed too (both were well and amicably corrected) so it can happen anywhere. After all, these are humans, not computers. No customer should be treated badly, or be intimidated out of standing up for his due. But I've found that offering praise when good work is done under difficult circumstances, inquiring after health and family, and buying the odd drink after a long day--along with the kind of knowledgeable interest so ably advocated by Michael--helps things go better for all parties concerned.
Last edited by couch on Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
C.Lee
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Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:55 pm

Couch, thank you for an enjoyable read. Your story provided not just an ingredient list, but a recipe for a long term partnership. I take from it that the key ingredients are will and dialogue, with a pinch of presence for good measure. Amazing how these qualities relate to self and has little to do with knowledge.

Bespeaking is a full-contact sport. Get in there.
alden
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Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:11 pm

Couch

Nice post but you had to bring up the demon himself? :D What a story that was. I remember trying to warn a boatload of people who got taken for a boatload of $$$$.

Your entry to Poole would have been 2004 or 2005 if I remember right. And the SR landscape was very different, wasn't it? The tailoring houses would have welcomed the postman with open arms mistaking him for a potential client. SR was hungry and times were bad. It was a good time to be a new customer, treated like blinking royalty I imagine. :)

Times have changed. I have heard the Julian story about a dozen times. A very experienced member of our little band of brothers was himself a victim and wrote about it on these pages. Another member told us of his traveling tailor woes and suits made before proper fittings. The thread went on for ages. So this is a new trend brought on by the big G word.

It has its roots in economics like all G related issues. Every manager of a tailoring house will tell you that money is lost on first customers and first garments. Time for consultations, time for pattern making, time for fittings..all that time adds up. A house makes money on the second, earnings greatly improve on the third and so on and so forth.

Today, managers have less skilled artisan time available in part because there are fewer skilled hands and, fortunately or unfortunately, depending on which side of the shears you are on, there are many more customers. Maybe there are too many customers looking for too few goods. Not exactly the stuff that buyers' markets are made of but it makes owners of houses happy. So how do you parcel out the limited time you have effectively? Do you demand minimums on orders like the more crooked or at least less "noble" shirt makers do? NO, not cricket. So you reduce your costs on that first coat to the very minimum on anyone who might not know what is going on and, in doing so, you free up time, and add more lovely numbers on the bottom line each quarter which translates into a portly bonus or at least enough to take the wife to the pub for a nice meal.

I suspect that is what is going on and I suspect that it will get worse before it gets better.

Cheers
couch
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Sat Sep 07, 2013 5:37 pm

alden wrote: Nice post but you had to bring up the demon himself? :D What a story that was. I remember trying to warn a boatload of people who got taken for a boatload of $$$$.
Yes, had I discovered the Lounge a few months earlier, I would have been wiser. As it is, at least I got a suit of sorts, unlike some. The coat was a waste of beautiful Lesser golden bale worsted flannel, but the two trousers have given good service as odd trousers.

I recall the two threads you refer to. I had hoped that, given that some of the same people we knew from better days are still working on the Row, those cases did not represent the experience of the majority of new clients today. If they do, it's regrettable.

I see cost pressures putting pressure on fitness for use in so many areas. Fifteen years ago it was still possible to find a variety of very respectable RTW shoes, American and English, in narrow fittings. Now it's difficult to find much even in MTM, and those from less than a handful of makers--only two U.S. firms that I know of.
J.S. Groot
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Sat Sep 07, 2013 8:42 pm

alden wrote: What a story that was.
I realize it is a deviation, but can you relate it? Just for those of us who (un)fortunately were not old enough to be into bespoke tailoring 10 years ago. Couch's rhyming slang is sadly not adequate.
hectorm
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Sat Sep 07, 2013 11:51 pm

couch wrote:I can only speak of my own relationship over several years (so far) with Henry Poole.....
Great post, couch!
As a Henry Poole's fan and client myself (in the 90s when I lived in London) I can significantly relate to your experience. Those were the times of Angus Cundey (Simon was doing the traveling across the Atlantic), Philip Parker was already the Director and Alan Alexander my cutter. I'm glad to hear that despite all that Henry Poole RTW around, the firm on 15 Savile Road has not declined.
Julian
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Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:19 am

I've been away for a few days trying to enjoy what might be the last gasp of the British summer and return to quite an active thread.

In answer to Michael's specific question from a few days ago: "Where did you do this research? On the net? Where? what feedback influenced you most to make the decision for this firm?".

That's difficult to answer since it was a gradual process over at least a year. Since I don't know anyone directly who has any knowledge of the bespoke world I'm afraid that my research was all via the internet. This forum was one source of input and was (and still is) the only forum that I come to explicitly to read although when I had a shortlist of potential candidates I did Google fairly extensively which yielded comments about various houses from other forums such as styleforum. My impression is that there are some genuine bespeakers there but also people regurgitating perceived wisdom with no direct experience. I did my best to filter out the swaggering from what appeared to be the genuinely knowledgeable posters. I was careful to avoid being influenced by the various "puff pieces" that exist on a few sites since it seems pretty clear that a blogger getting a discount or a kick-back from advertising revenue is unlikely to criticise and, even if there is nothing to criticise, is likely to get a much higher level of service to write about than the average non-titled or non-celebrity customer since all involved know that the experience is being written up. Ultimately it was the absence of bad feedback together with the overall reputation of the house together with some good feedback here that influenced me.
preobrazhensky wrote:...I think the problem – if we agree there is a problem - is not dishonest tailors, but the general atmosphere of Savile Row. The aura of the place. It is the tailors, as much as the customers, who are in thrall to the history. And the sense of its own specialness is perhaps inflated with the prices.
I think this is the root of the ‘house style’ stumbling block. I have witnessed it, and tried, not altogether successfully, to pass over it. It is as if by now the tailoring houses think: “Who are you – who even are we – to question the established procedure? And haven’t you elected to pay this premium for our counsel?” I have had to really argue, for myself and for others, for the slight adjustment of a gorge height, pocket height, or button point, and been told that they should never be moved because – not that I could understand – everything would be thrown out of balance. I enjoy discussing these matters, and coming up with the best solution, taking a tailor’s expert advice; but I don’t enjoy being dismissed, and I also lose faith in the creative abilities of anyone who thinks and behaves that way. ...
The above rings so true to my experience, particularly the wall of resistance that is encountered when discussing adjustments and the defence offered that the balance is currently perfect and that any change would destroy that balance. I am also more than happy to listen to a tailors advice but what I really object to about my experience is never being given the opportunity to discuss any changes on the basis that the cutter and I agreed to address the concerns that I did raise during the basted fitting at the second fitting only to subsequently discover that there was to be no second fitting. Perhaps it was a simple administrative error whereby the cutter somehow got his clients mixed up, thought that I had had my second fitting and was happy to go to the finished garment, and sent it off for finishing on that basis. This is still an error on the part of the house, and still resulted in my having had no real chance to give my input, but would at least be a less cynical act on behalf of the house.

A big part of me finds it quite difficult to be asking for a refund or remake for the sake of dropping the buttoning point 1/2" to 3/4" and some slight changes to the cutaway beneath the buttons since these seem to be such small tweaks but I keep telling myself that it the principle that really matters and the fact that, having paid a premium price for supposedly a premium service, to not even have been given the opportunity to discuss these changes during the fitting process is unacceptable.

By way of balance so that I don't come across as Mr Angry who will never be satisfied with anything I will point out that my other project at the moment is getting some shirts made by Robert Whittaker at Dege & Skinner and that my experience with Robert is everything that I could hope for from a bespoke maker. His passion for his craft is apparent and, when discussing changes, his first act is to reach for my pattern and show me what he plans to do and how it will all fit together. My first shirt had a couple of fit issues that I had noticed but also a couple that Robert pointed out that I hadn't been aware of, one of which involved him remaking a collar that he wasn't happy with but looked fine to me until he pointed out the issue. One real measure of a tailor's quality seems to be whether he or she would have let a customer walk out with such an unnoticed issue or whether they would have been anxious to correct it. Robert appears to be in the latter camp.

- Julian
J.S. Groot
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Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:39 am

Have you considered relating your experience to the folks at your tailor's in the same honest and candid way that you have done it here on this forum? By the way you have told your story here, you certainly do not come across as Mr Angry. As you have already paid for the garment in question, the reality probably is that you have little leverage to require or claim anything, but at least you can tell them how you feel about the process. This will also give them a genuine chance to dispel your reservations towards their practices, if not by altering the garment then at least by apologizing or admitting to a lack of information, and to provide you with some assurance that this is not how they would like to treat their clients. And if they do not take this chance, it will make their attitude absolutely clear to you (and you will be able to get off the sinking ship before any further mishaps).
J.S. Groot
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Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:57 am

Julian wrote:One real measure of a tailor's quality seems to be whether he or she would have let a customer walk out with such an unnoticed issue or whether they would have been anxious to correct it.
You have it absolutely right there. Also, for me personally, I find that a good measure is the tailor's approach to something as simple as conversation. Obviously, this relates to discussion during fittings, but even just chit chat about bolts of cloth, other garments in the atelier, tailoring in general etc. is important to me, especially because it enables the tailor to get a clearer picture of how I view the world of bespoke and thus my expectations. Reciprocally, it also enables me to get a better feel of the tailor's approach to his metier. In all, I find that a good conversational relationship with your tailor will even minimize the need for discussing particular issues during fittings, because he will already know many of the things I would mention.

My prejudice, which is in no way founded in personal experience and should be taken thusly, is that both measures (the one you mentioned as well as my own) are negatively affected by the size of the tailoring operation in question, which is to say that with larger houses who have scores of clients and where the 'distance' between individual craftsmen and the client is bigger, the individual client means less. Some Savile Row stories, yours for example, seems to confirm this, whereas others, Couch's is a fine example, fortunately exposes it for what it is: A prejudice.
alden
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Mon Sep 09, 2013 7:20 am

but I keep telling myself that it the principle that really matters and the fact that, having paid a premium price for supposedly a premium service, to not even have been given the opportunity to discuss these changes during the fitting process is unacceptable.
Mr. Angry, you need to get angrier. How about Mr. Livid? Had a cutter done that to me, I would have seen red and he would have been pinned...to the wall! :D If you guys let them get away with it, you are condemning others to the same fate.
I was careful to avoid being influenced by the various "puff pieces" that exist on a few sites since it seems pretty clear that a blogger getting a discount or a kick-back from advertising revenue is unlikely to criticise and, even if there is nothing to criticise, is likely to get a much higher level of service to write about than the average non-titled or non-celebrity customer since all involved know that the experience is being written up.
Well that is good news. It amazes me to see how many young men who actually went to University, got a degree and a good enough job to afford bespoke, go wobbly kneed before some blogger who has coerced clothes they do not know how to wear from tailors (and who look horrible in the stuff.) If they only used the same brains that got them into and out of school, the same common sense they use everyday, they would not go near those blogs. But somehow bespoke has a curious effect on young men, like standing before a beautiful girl, ...the brain shuts off and other mystical powers take over the controls.

Cheers
Scot
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Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:47 am

It is difficult for a satisfied SR customer to read this stuff without wondering what on earth is going on. I use one of the smaller houses, where the Head Cutter and MD are one and the same and the only product is bespoke. From the very beginning I experienced no "attitude" of any description other than welcoming (this was in 2008). I am not an aristocrat, plutocrat or celebrity, and I did not promise to commision more than one suit. I don't really see what is wrong with being led by the tailor on the first suit. Not being an expert myself it seemed a reasonable way to proceed. As time and garments have gone by my requests have been listened to, discussed and enacted. Sometimes I wish I had taken the advice of the cutter more to heart rather than pressing on with my own ill-conceived ideas. Since my original cutter retired my new one has been assiduous in ensuring everything he has produced has met his own high standards and my expectations. So, I think it is unfair to draw from the unfortunate experience of some, with the larger houses (names might be helpful), the conclusion that the whole row is rotten!
By way of balance so that I don't come across as Mr Angry who will never be satisfied with anything I will point out that my other project at the moment is getting some shirts made by Robert Whittaker at Dege & Skinner and that my experience with Robert is everything that I could hope for from a bespoke maker.
Julian - I am glad that you have at least found Robert! Although, beware, according to some he is not a "real" bespoke shirtmaker.
dempsy444
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Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:34 pm

This has been a very instructive discussion. thank you. Julian, I'm sorry to hear about the rushed fitting. You deserved to see another fitting to get comfortable with the suit before they went to the final fitting and the fact that they didn't honor this is dishonorable.
I get tired of hearing those who like to defend the Row and put the onus on the customer for "not doing his research" or "being naive." All this misses the point. Bespoke is meant to be about the customer and when tailors make it about themselves or their history or their house cut, they undermine their own profession.

Some of the conclusions I have drawn based on my limited experience with the Row and from reading the forums are:

1. Hold off on commissioning a suit from the established Row houses until you have adequate experience to the point where you have confidence to be firm with them and know what to call them out on. And quite frankly, are wise enough to avoid your own mistakes.
2. Avoid commissioning from the Row if you live overseas until you have satisfied #1 and only if you travel to London at least once or twice a year. Relying on the fitting process in the every-six-month traveling scheme leads to rushed fittings like you encountered.
3. Seek the tailor, not the brand.
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