Adjusting jacket opening below front buttons

[Julian]

I'm still wrestling with two style issues in getting a fit and style that I feel is optimum for me; they are almost certainly related and there might be a third related factor as well.

My first issue is the buttoning point on two button single breasted sports coats. There has been some wonderful information on this posted by couch on Luca's "Advice for my post-LL "MTM" suit" thread. Thank you couch.

My second issue is how I want the bottom of the jacket to be cut away at the front below the lowest button. Two extremes would be completely closed as in a double breasted jacket all the way to something massively cut away almost to the extent of a morning coat. My preference is somewhere between those extremes, maybe a little more open than a traditional fairly closed Savile Row cut but not massively so.

The third issue that I won't dwell on in this first post on the subject, but I wonder whether it might also have some bearing on the decisions, is the degree of waist suppression chosen.

Right now I'm considering some post-production changes on my third and latest commission. I think that the buttoning point is about right, maybe 1/4" to a 1/2" too high but possibly not worth changing and/or not practical to change now that the jacket is finished, but I am more actively debating as to whether I want it more cut away at the front. I suppose my first question should be what is the correct terminology to refer to how the front of a jacket is cut away below the lowest button? Is it simply called the "front opening", "front quarter cutaways", etc? I'd quite like to have a more concise and accepted term to use for it if one exists in the tailoring world.

My real issue however is that I have some lack of trust with the major Savile Row house doing this for me so, if I do request some changes, I would like to arm myself with some information first before proceeding. In particular, if I do request some further cutting away of the front opening then is it possible and practical to do this in such a way that, if I decide it isn't working, the front can be closed up again? It seems to me that the canvass would be the issue here since the cloth itself can always be bunched up and loosely stitched up inside the jacket for the fitting rather than being cut off entirely so that, if it is subsequently decided to not make the change, the cloth is still there to put things back. The canvas however might not be quite so amenable to being temporarily tucked back. Could it be cut away and then if the change needs to be wholly or partially reversed could a new piece of canvas be stitched in place at the bottom? It's nowhere near the chest or any area that really needs much help with shape so it seems to me that this might be a possibility.

The reason for my lack of trust and the reason why I'm not particularly concerned about how much work I might cause this particular house is because I feel that they have behaved very badly during the making of my jacket. I was a brand new customer to them and my first fitting was of course a basted fitting. During my initial measurement and at the subsequent basted fitting we specifically discussed the buttoning point and the front opening. I expressed some concern about both these aspects during the basted fitting but after discussion it was agreed that the lack of real lapels on the basted fitting was making it difficult for my untrained eye to judge so we would leave both those items unchanged and re-visit them on the first forward fitting. The cutter even made a comment at the time that the basted fitting was mainly for his benefit. I duly booked an appointment for the second (first forward) fitting and when I arrived for that fitting I was amazed to be presented with a completed jacket; no forward fitting at all. Given the cutter's comment that the basted fitting is mainly for his benefit I am left wondering why it was felt acceptable to present me with a finished garment where there had been no fitting conducted that was for my benefit.

Does anyone consider it acceptable practice for one of the major houses, charging over £3,000 for a sports coat, to go straight from basted to finish for a brand new customer? This seems especially egregious when the customer has explicitly mentioned aspects of the fit and style that he was still uncertain about and it had been agreed that they would be looked at again in the next fitting.

- Julian

[alden]

Does anyone consider it acceptable practice for one of the major houses, charging over £3,000 for a sports coat, to go straight from basted to finish for a brand new customer? This seems especially egregious when the customer has explicitly mentioned aspects of the fit and style that he was still uncertain about and it had been agreed that they would be looked at again in the next fitting.

Julian,

The rationale these houses use to justify this kind of practice is to say, “We are going to make a first time client ‘our’ house style. If he doesn’t like it we can make changes on the second one.” I am not sure why they do it, but it must work, because they keep on doing it. A SR house would not dare do this if first time clients told them politely but forcefully where they could put ‘their’ jacket. Or since it is ‘their” jacket, state that it should be free of charge. “I will be happy to pay for ‘my’ jacket when you make me one.”

But an inexperienced, first time client is often not bold enough for this reasonable course of action. He pays and tries to recoup his losses. So the house gets two orders instead of one from a new client almost every time.

Recutting front quarters on a coat that has been finished is not advisable. It will never look right. If you have not paid for the coat, please follow the cues and action set forth in the preceding paragraphs. If you have paid in full, you can make the style changes on your second coat, try to get your money back or try another house. I wish I had a better answer for you.

Cheers

Michael

[davidhuh]

Does anyone consider it acceptable practice for one of the major houses, charging over £3,000 for a sports coat, to go straight from basted to finish for a brand new customer? This seems especially egregious when the customer has explicitly mentioned aspects of the fit and style that he was still uncertain about and it had been agreed that they would be looked at again in the next fitting.

- Julian

Dear Julian,

I'm sorry to hear your dissatisfaction. The short answer to your question is no.
However, some tailors like A&S don't have a basted fitting. Their first fitting is the forward fitting. I usually have two fittings on a suit, even on first commissions.

A polite but firm discussion the your tailoring house is certainly warranted. Good luck!

Cheers, David

[hectorm]

The rationale these houses use to justify this kind of practice is to say, “We are going to make a first time client ‘our’ house style. If he doesn’t like it we can make changes on the second one.” A SR house would not dare do this if first time clients told them politely but forcefully where they could put ‘their’ jacket. Or since it is ‘their” jacket, state that it should be free of charge. “I will be happy to pay for ‘my’ jacket when you make me one.”

All this may be true, but I wonder why a first time Savile Row client would go to Huntsman or Richard Anderson if he dislikes "their" one button stance, or why he would go to A&S or Steven Hitchcock if he's not fond of "their" drape, or the same with choosing Henry Poole or Gieves & Hawkes if "his" jacket must have spallacamicia and no padding.
Many SR tailors accommodate their client's style preferences up to a certain degree but the well established houses offer primarily their own style. I believe that there should be a certain degree of previous "homework" done by the first time client in order to avoid those extremes situations of "my" jacket vs "theirs".

[alden]

All this may be true, but I wonder why a first time Savile Row client would go to Huntsman or Richard Anderson if he dislikes "their" one button stance, or why he would go to A&S or Steven Hitchcock if he's not fond of "their" drape, or the same with choosing Henry Poole or Gieves & Hawkes if "his" jacket must have spallacamicia and no padding.
Many SR tailors accommodate their client's style preferences up to a certain degree but the well established houses offer primarily their own style. I believe that there should be a certain degree of previous "homework" done by the first time client in order to avoid those extremes situations of "my" jacket vs "theirs".

Agreed. But in the OP's case he was led to believe that a series of fittings would take place, and they didn't. And the house went from a basted fit to a finish. I was trying to suggest a plausible reason why the houses are doing this as I have heard the rationale straight from the mouths of some SR directors' mouths. The only other possible explanation is simple error. Or it might be that a bunch of coatmakers were sitting around twiddling their thumbs and the cutter said "here, sew this up!"

If a house wants to impose their cut on a first time client without fittings, they should be up front and honestly explain the process to the client who would be, then, fully informed and capable of making a decision to proceed or not. This is not a question of house cut or not, it is a question of fair play.

Cheers

PS: I would be curious to ask Julien how he came to decide on the house he chose.

[Julian]

Thank you all for the replies. Michael's comment about houses tending to make the first coat in the house style is interesting; it's interesting to put my experience in context and it does reinforce the general impression that I was left with, the impression that the cutter had simply cut the coat that he had wanted to cut and discarded all input from me, even input given during the basted fitting.

Regarding Hector's point, I agree completely and I do not believe that this is an issue here. One lesson that I did take on board before starting even my first bespoke commission two years ago was that it doesn't make sense to choose a house whose house style doesn't match one's own preferences. My answer below regarding Michael's question about why I decided on the house that I did illustrates this.

The reason I chose this particular house was on the basis of general feedback and opinions on their house style, the fact that I hadn't seen any horror stories, the fact that their own publicity material spoke about multiple fittings, an in-person exploratory visit, and looking at examples of their work. One final item that swung it for me however was a picture of a jacket that they have as a prominent example of their work on their web site and presumably, if used in the marketing material, is considered by them to exemplify their house style. To me the overall balance on that particular jacket was (is) perfect. During my initial fact finding visit and the subsequent cloth selection and measuring visit I actually took in the picture of that jacket, taken from their web site, and explained that this was one of the things that had drawn me to them and what I liked so much about it. I got the appropriate reassuring noises regarding the picture.

Particular factors in my choice of house style were to do with drape and shoulder structure where I specifically didn't want an A&S-like level of drape or super-structured military shoulders so I deliberately chose a house whose house style was not A&S drape and was well known to be in the middle as far as shoulder structure was concerned. I also wanted a 2 button jacket so I deliberately avoided one-button specialists such as Huntsman and Richard Anderson. (As it happens one of the things that I do want to try, at least once, is to see whether the one button style works for me and I have always intended to go to Richard Anderson for that experiment at some point, and for subsequent one-button commissions is the experiment is deemed a success. I really do try to stick within house styles.)

My issues don't seem to me to be related to my trying to push a well-established house to do a radically different style to its house style, it is more a case of not being given the opportunity to adjust certain parameters within the house style during the fitting stage. In a way this makes it even more frustrating because the jacket isn't a disaster, it's actually really good. The shoulders, chest and back are all very tidy and, although I would probably have moved the top buttoning point down maybe 1/2", it's not enough to make a huge difference and some slight lowering by a fraction of an inch might even happen naturally as the shoulders settle making this particular issue even more minor. The issue that is bothering me far more is the one that is the subject of this thread.

Unfortunately I have paid for the jacket, probably a mistake. My instinct is, despite Michael's comments, to ask for changes to the front opening and possibly a very slight lessening of the waist suppression. If this does end up causing issues due to problems with making these changes in a satisfactory manner on a finished item then that would seem to strengthen my case for a refund on the basis that the reason for these issues arising is the fact that I was never given a forward fitting where they could have been addressed without issue. If the changes are made in a satisfactory manner then I have a very good jacket although I doubt this house will get another commission from me.

When I get a chance I'll try to post some pictures to illustrate what I mean regarding front opening.

- Julian

[davidhuh]

When I get a chance I'll try to post some pictures to illustrate what I mean regarding front opening.

- Julian

Dear Julian,

please do that. However, a few of your comments make me think.

One final item that swung it for me however was a picture of a jacket that they have as a prominent example of their work on their web site and presumably, if used in the marketing material, is considered by them to exemplify their house style. To me the overall balance on that particular jacket was (is) perfect.

So you saw a picture on your website, and you wanted this coat more or less copied for you? All fine, but within boundaries. You may not have seen the website coat on the person it was made for. What you saw might not even look very good on you. What you order however must make the best out of you, so I doubt that any model you spot on a website would do that job.

In a way this makes it even more frustrating because the jacket isn't a disaster, it's actually really good. The shoulders, chest and back are all very tidy and, although I would probably have moved the top buttoning point down maybe 1/2", it's not enough to make a huge difference and some slight lowering by a fraction of an inch might even happen naturally as the shoulders settle making this particular issue even more minor.

It looks good - what are you complaining about?
I agree on the fittings etc - but if you got a good looking jacket, what is left to complain?

Cheers, David

[Luca]

I'm somewhat taken aback by all this. We're talking about a bespoke suit, right? Well over 2K? If that's the attitude that Saville Row is going to take, then they will end up with no clients other than, for brief while, the nouveau riche crowd before they, too, twig the game.
Very disappointing.

[Julian]

In a way this makes it even more frustrating because the jacket isn't a disaster, it's actually really good. The shoulders, chest and back are all very tidy and, although I would probably have moved the top buttoning point down maybe 1/2", it's not enough to make a huge difference and some slight lowering by a fraction of an inch might even happen naturally as the shoulders settle making this particular issue even more minor.

It looks good - what are you complaining about?
I agree on the fittings etc - but if you got a good looking jacket, what is left to complain?

Sorry, my sentence had an absurd omission which was in my head but inexplicably didn't make it into my post. What I meant to type was something along the lines of "... the jacket isn't a total disaster because in many ways it's really good. The shoulders, chest and back are all very tidy but the issues with the front opening and possibly the degree of waist suppression and buttoning point throw off the balance and make the skirt look heavier than I wanted and expected.

- Julian

[alden]

Julian

Make an appointment to see the MD of the firm. Take the coat and explain to him what happened. You did not receive fittings as was represented by the firm in its adverts and by the cutter in your meetings. A breach of contract has occurred and you will like to amicably rectify the situation. You would like to have the coat remade or receive a refund. Period.

If you have them alter the coat, it will look worse than what you have today. And they will have made a good faith effort to fix the error and would then feel no need to refund you or do anything more for you. So you will wind up with a really unpleasant coat and little recourse.

The reason I chose this particular house was on the basis of general feedback and opinions on their house style, the fact that I hadn't seen any horror stories

Where did you do this research? On the net? Where? what feedback influenced you most to make the decision for this firm?

Cheers

[preobrazhensky]

I have only used one Savile Row tailor, but I have watched the process of many others. I found them all extremely personable, but I have never quite been comfortable with how it all works. I have never been convinced. I think the problem – if we agree there is a problem - is not dishonest tailors, but the general atmosphere of Savile Row. The aura of the place. It is the tailors, as much as the customers, who are in thrall to the history. And the sense of its own specialness is perhaps inflated with the prices.
I think this is the root of the ‘house style’ stumbling block. I have witnessed it, and tried, not altogether successfully, to pass over it. It is as if by now the tailoring houses think: “Who are you – who even are we – to question the established procedure? And haven’t you elected to pay this premium for our counsel?” I have had to really argue, for myself and for others, for the slight adjustment of a gorge height, pocket height, or button point, and been told that they should never be moved because – not that I could understand – everything would be thrown out of balance. I enjoy discussing these matters, and coming up with the best solution, taking a tailor’s expert advice; but I don’t enjoy being dismissed, and I also lose faith in the creative abilities of anyone who thinks and behaves that way.
The best Italian tailors are artisans, in the best sense of the word. They love their work, and they have no pretensions about it. With my Italian tailor I have not only been able to move everything around as I wish – and he is happy to leave everything, including pockets, changeable until a final fitting, which, from my experience, London tailors will not do – but I have been able to redraw from scratch the shape of the lapel, or pocket. I simply show him examples, in photos, of details I like, and he is able to copy them, and happy to copy them. I can tell when he thinks I am going wrong, and I trust him then, because I know he is prepared to realise my vision as well as possible. I do not feel like a customer, or a client, and money is never spoken of. It is an enjoyable and productive relationship, and I feel sure that the product of it is far more personal than anything I could get from Savile Row. And at a quarter of the price too.
I don’t mean to make a general argument against Savile Row, or English tailoring in general, and obviously many members here are happy with the product, and I have seen their good results. It is just that I find the whole procedure unsuited to me, and I’m sure others have felt the same. In the other thread Michael was sorry for how dealings could be so unsatisfactory in a place as ‘genteel’ as the Row; but I wonder if perhaps it is that very pretence to gentility that spoils the experience – it elevates Savile Row tailoring to something beyond the craft, and so it can be used as an excuse for shortcuts, and for what is simply bad service.

[couch]

One final item that swung it for me however was a picture of a jacket that they have as a prominent example of their work on their web site and presumably, if used in the marketing material, is considered by them to exemplify their house style. To me the overall balance on that particular jacket was (is) perfect

Not to address all the issues Julian raises, but just a reminder that if the photo on the web site was on a form rather than a person, there is a good chance that it will have been pinned in the back, so that the quarters appear more open and the waist more nipped than they would on the actual customer. I've heard this even from cutters at Poole in the past. On their current site, only the tan windowpane jacket shows this pulling open of the quarters--the other photos are careful to keep the vertical lines in stripes and checks vertical, so the quarters are closed to the traditional SR degree. If you're discussing a photo on a form, it's worth asking whether it was pinned and whether the quarters would hang differently on the customer.

[alden]

I have only used one Savile Row tailor, but I have watched the process of many others. I found them all extremely personable, but I have never quite been comfortable with how it all works. I have never been convinced. I think the problem – if we agree there is a problem - is not dishonest tailors, but the general atmosphere of Savile Row. The aura of the place. It is the tailors, as much as the customers, who are in thrall to the history. And the sense of its own specialness is perhaps inflated with the prices.
I think this is the root of the ‘house style’ stumbling block. I have witnessed it, and tried, not altogether successfully, to pass over it. It is as if by now the tailoring houses think: “Who are you – who even are we – to question the established procedure? And haven’t you elected to pay this premium for our counsel?” I have had to really argue, for myself and for others, for the slight adjustment of a gorge height, pocket height, or button point, and been told that they should never be moved because – not that I could understand – everything would be thrown out of balance. I enjoy discussing these matters, and coming up with the best solution, taking a tailor’s expert advice; but I don’t enjoy being dismissed, and I also lose faith in the creative abilities of anyone who thinks and behaves that way.
The best Italian tailors are artisans, in the best sense of the word. They love their work, and they have no pretensions about it. With my Italian tailor I have not only been able to move everything around as I wish – and he is happy to leave everything, including pockets, changeable until a final fitting, which, from my experience, London tailors will not do – but I have been able to redraw from scratch the shape of the lapel, or pocket. I simply show him examples, in photos, of details I like, and he is able to copy them, and happy to copy them. I can tell when he thinks I am going wrong, and I trust him then, because I know he is prepared to realise my vision as well as possible. I do not feel like a customer, or a client, and money is never spoken of. It is an enjoyable and productive relationship, and I feel sure that the product of it is far more personal than anything I could get from Savile Row. And at a quarter of the price too.
I don’t mean to make a general argument against Savile Row, or English tailoring in general, and obviously many members here are happy with the product, and I have seen their good results. It is just that I find the whole procedure unsuited to me, and I’m sure others have felt the same. In the other thread Michael was sorry for how dealings could be so unsatisfactory in a place as ‘genteel’ as the Row; but I wonder if perhaps it is that very pretence to gentility that spoils the experience – it elevates Savile Row tailoring to something beyond the craft, and so it can be used as an excuse for shortcuts, and for what is simply bad service.

Great post. The description of working with your Italian tailor is a description of how things should be. I don't think it is as much Italian vs British because I have that kind of relationship with a very English tailor and I have known Italians who were the essence of arrogant intransigence.

It it a question of the individual and context. The employees of the large houses do what they are told to do. They don't have freedom of action. They follow a procedure. They have to deal with what Mr. Lee described as "Goliath" just like the clients do. One the other extreme, the craftsman or partner in a small firm potentially has more leeway for creative work. If you are served by an individual who gets great pleasure in his craft and has the will to go the extra mile, you are very fortunate indeed.

Like you, I would have a great deal of problem adapting myself to the culture of the large houses. I consider myself very fortunate to have been able to avoid them most of my bespeaking career.

Cheers

[alden]

Not to address all the issues Julian raises, but just a reminder that if the photo on the web site was on a form rather than a person, there is a good chance that it will have been pinned in the back, so that the quarters appear more open and the waist more nipped than they would on the actual customer. I've heard this even from cutters at Poole in the past. On their current site, only the tan windowpane jacket shows this pulling open of the quarters--the other photos are careful to keep the vertical lines in stripes and checks vertical, so the quarters are closed to the traditional SR degree. If you're discussing a photo on a form, it's worth asking whether it was pinned and whether the quarters would hang differently on the customer.

Couch,

Good point. You know what I find so amusing? Many of the SR houses use photos of their "great" clients of the past. (They all seem to claim some of the same ones .) And yet the wonderful expressions of sartorial style these stars were wearing bear little in common with the reality of today's mundane, plodding "house" styles.( I can think of one firm in particular where this double set of values is so stark as to be ridiculous.) So the reality is that "house styles" are not the result of a century of tradition and excellence. They are the whim of the latest MD or head cutter. If he has good taste, the "house" will rock. If he doesn't, and few do, the house will have to rely on mean tricks like pulling the wings off vulnerable, new clients.

Cheers

[preobrazhensky]

Michael, I know you're right that it is not always that way in Italy. Every major Italian city now has its celebrity tailoring house, thanks in part to internet discussion; and so we get to watch how a house style develops. They have found fans from photos - usually very flamboyant photos - of their product out of context; and then they caricature the local tradition, to sell it to their new fanbase, gratefully tripling the prices for them. Their job becomes different, and a lot easier. And their product inevitably changes. Success makes them complacent; or perhaps they want to justify to themselves turning what was a tradition into a brand.
The same must have happened in London a long time ago. I agree that it is laughable that most of Savile Row not only claims, but seems to believe, that they do things as they always have done. The pictures prove to us that they don't, but tailors, in desperation, see something different in the pictures. Most of the modern product is decidedly dowdy, and stuck in an angular '70s or '80s trend that I couldn't be comfortable in. They get away with that because of the brand. More of their customers need to be more demanding, and get over the prestige of the brand, for it to change. I am sure this site does its little bit to help that change!