Seeking advice on weight and color number for Lesser Suiting

[Tony_san]

Hi all, my first post here. I am definitively new to bespoke (<1yr) and still have much to learn. So, excuse my noob question or lack of technicial terms (and my poor English).

I am slowly building up my wardrode. For business use, I plan to add a basic and versatile suit. I am eyeing on fabrics from Lesser, Harrisons, or Minniss because I heard a lot of good words on them. So far I have:
1) 8/9 oz Fresco 0500 light gray suit (mainly for summer)
2) ~10oz QX Navy (for 4 seasons, I can survive in it in the 35 degree summer in Hong Kong, and the winter here rarely drops below 15 degree)
3) ~9/10oz H&S Crispaire Navy (bought the fabric and will make up a suit soon).

My question is:
- I learnt that more weight of the fabric offers better drape. As I can survive with the 10oz QX, I am leaning to try some 11oz fabric. Or the 12/13 oz range will make insignificant difference in term of warmth?
- Color-wise, I want a plain medium gray (which should be a deeper shade of gray compared to my Fresco 0500) for versatility for 4 seasons. If I want to stick with the abovementioned 3 providers, is there a specific color code you recommend? I prefer something like the "cross" weave similar to that of my Fresco or plain weave.
- My tailor told me that whether it is fully-lined or half-lined actually makes no difference in warmth. Instead, he recommended fully-lined for business suit because fully-lined is more formal. Any opinion?

Any inputs appreicated. Look forward to learn slowly from all of you guys.

[rogiercreemers]

I find that for summer, Lesser Tropical is a fine choice. It has a number of mid-grey hues that you can look up on their website.

I do, however, disagree with your tailor about the lining point. I wear quite hot, and all my summer suits are unlined.

[Simon A]

Buggy-lined/quarter-lined jackets are cooler as they have only one layer of fabric for about half the suit. Linings although lightweight are not very permeable to airflow. Tailors know this, but a buggy-lined jacket takes more labour to make as exposed seams must be neatly piped, so some tailors discourage it. If you search through the archives you will see this discussed at length.

I have been wearing 13 oz Brisa in Hong Kong and similar climes, and it is comfortable throughout the summer if buggy-lined. If looking at stock fabrics of similar open hopsack weave, you could try the Smith's Finmeresco. The Harrisons P&B Fine Classics book also has some hopsacks around that weight which are good solid workhorse fabrics.

The Harrisons Grand Cru worsteds at 11 oz are more densely woven (and so wear warmer), have a very nice hand and good drape, and a deal cheaper than the Lesser product. It is a bit hot for HK midsummer wear though, so really a three season suit.

If you are considering four-season wear, best to get a waistcoat made too for more comfort in Hong Kong's windy, humid winters.

[Tony_san]

Thanks Rogie and Simon for the info. It helps definitely.

Simon, I am actually not looking for a summer only suit. To clarify, As I have the Fresco and Crispaire already, I would like to look for a 10-month suit (except the hottest July and August). I want to see whether if I can tolerate more weight and heat, I can enjoy more "body" and "dryness" you guys experts often mentioned here. Or do you mean you are suggesting Finmeresco in this context? After wearing both the fresco and qx, I can say I like the texture of fresco more and I like it more rigid. Maybe I should stick with the open weave in heavier weight for colder weather?

Sorry, what does hopsack mean? Open weave fabric?

May I also have some recommended gray shade? Anyone? Thanks.

[Simon A]

Hopsack describes the weave pattern. The LL worsteds, Fresco, and Finmeresco are all variants of this. Finmeresco is a pretty good fabric and comes in various weights, Gordon Yao has some books if you want to have a feel.

On cold windy Hong Kong days in winter, any kind of open-weave hopsack is too breezy to wear with comfort outdoors. So a midweight densely woven worsted, like a plain twill, will be more comfortable, and you are spoilt for choice in this range (11-12 oz). If you search the archives, you can read plenty of road tests. In addition to what has already been mentioned, you can look up Minnis Classics, Harrisons Frontier and Oyster, or Dugdale Royal Classics.

[Tony_san]

Thanks all. I have finally gone for the lesser 8/9oz given that it seems to have only fans not haters.

[Tony_san]

Btw, do you the 31424 or 31426 will be a nice mid gray for business suit for 4 seasons? For gray tone, I have a Minnis fresco 0500 light gray only. Thanks.

[alden]

Tony,

The fabrics in the distributors’ book are generally good, honest products. If you find a color and pattern that pleases you and can be worn in your climate, you can buy in good faith. Get access to the books and choose for yourself.

But you should know that the distributors tend to carry the mid end quality fabrics from any given mill’s selection. Their margin expectations make this necessary. If they sold the highest quality fabrics, that are very expensive to produce and cost quite a bit more wholesale, their retail prices would have to be very high as well. They would price themselves out of the market. That was the quandary that the Lesser brothers found themselves in. They commissioned top of the line quality but found they could not charge enough for it and their margins were commercially too weak.

This point was made rather graphically recently when a few distributors complained to a mill about a very successful LL fabric book. They didn't like the competition. The mills’ execs were very pleased to retort, “but we have been showing you the qualities that the LL carries for decades and you have never been interested because you found them too expensive! So you carry the entry level line. We are very pleased to see someone deliver our very best products to market....again, after so many years.” End of case.

The same can be said of the LL tweeds, Donegals, travel worsteds etc. They are the very best available. Period. Pick up a piece of Mistral, Brisa or Piuma and compare them to the mid range compacts from the distributors and you will see the difference. Or rather you will see “through” the difference.

The LL Fox flannels were made according to a recipe from Fox Bros 1930s archive. It is the cloth we see in the old films. It is almost like buying a length of fabric history. I think it is the best bargain in the cloth market today. You are getting a bespoke 1930s’ Rolls Royce for the price of a Lexus.

In the LL clothclub I have made it a rule to commission only the very best qualities the mills can make. So if you have a chance to participate in some of the clubs’ projects you will be able to acquire cloth that is simply not available elsewhere from a design, construction or quality perspective.

[MRJ]

Michael , the most interesting point coming out of the mill execs discussion is that LL fabrics are clearly beginning to make an impact on the market. We work hard to generate sufficient interest for 60m and yet distributors are beginning to notice even though this is a relatively small volume.

[Tony_san]

Thanks Michael. The logic on why the best selling products are mid low end makes a lot of sense to me. It happens to the industry I was in - whiskey, where everyone is selling chi as in china. If the sales companies focus on selling some single malt, that will impact both the margin and volume.

For the fox flannel, am I correct to understand that the LL series are higher in quality not only in the color and pattern choices but also in the fabric quality? I like the very nice color and pattern of the LL series but would like to confirm whether there are other difference. Thanks.

[alden]

For the fox flannel, am I correct to understand that the LL series are higher in quality not only in the color and pattern choices but also in the fabric quality? I like the very nice color and pattern of the LL series but would like to confirm whether there are other difference.

Tony,

The LL Fox flannel is a vintage flannel made today, that is, it is made according to quality standards of the past. It is a very heavyweight woolen cloth and it drapes like vintage damask curtains. In a woolen flannel, weight matters. You need it for durability as well as drape. No need to make two trousers with this flannel. It will wear as well as worsted flannel.

Lighter weight flannels suffer a bit for the lack of weight. They can crease easily and wear out fast if worn hard. It is best to stay above 16 ozs for a woolen flannel.

Life in HK may not be conducive to wearing heavy flannels. If you travel to cold climes, however, they could become a staple of your wardrobe. There are a few LLers who live in China and travel worldwide. They swear by the Mistral as the perfect travel cloth. You should also look at "high quality" linens (hard to find) and travel worsteds made to a high quality spec (also very hard to find.)

Finally, a word of sound advice, if you are spending thousands to have a great tailor make you clothes, do not try to save pennies on cloth. It's a fools bargain. Instead, buy the very best fabric you can and build your wardrobe over time with wise choices. It will pay off ten fold.

And beware of employees of various mills and distributors who work forums pretending to be normal posters to hawk their products and snare the unwitting. They constantly try to get into the LL and I do not allow them access. But they are active everywhere else. Everywhere. And be careful of advice abundant on some forums from very inexperienced voices, often students with too much time on their hands. Learn to feel quality cloth with your own hands. It might not be as fun as tasting single malts, but you will learn to enjoy it just the same.

Cheers and Good luck

Michael Alden

[alden]

I disagree. From research that I have done and me feeling the cloth with my own hands and seeing older woolen flannel suits and similar garments with such weight and thread counts, it is best for woolen flannel to be a minimum of 13 ounces (which is approximately 370 grams) for supreme drape and durability. I will say, however, that the higher the weight of woolen flannel, the better it will drape and the better the durability will be.

Audi,

I appreciate your researching fabrics, feeling cloth and seeing vintage suits. All bespeakers should be this conscientious.

I have a real love for flannel. Over the past 35 years, I have made up about 20 flannel suits in all kinds and weights of flannel imaginable. My experience led me to desire real vintage flannel in the traditional weights and thread counts. The LL Fox book gave me the chance to make such a cloth.

I think it depends alot on the way one wears flannel. My 14 and 16 ozs Lesser Golden Bale woolen flannel suits from twenty years ago are an absolute joy to wear...every once and awhile, with a good deal of rest between wears, twice a month is about right. They are fragile, like most all flannel below 16 ozs. If you have an active life and even if you are careful, you would wear these flannels out in no time if you wore them hard, say twice a week. I have done it, so I know.

Cheers

[Tony_san]

Thanks For the replies.

Michael,

The potential bad advices got from some random forums are destructive or at least confusing to my purchase decision. That's why I am glad to be here to be able to solicit some experts' advice.

The 16oz is really too heavy for weather in Hong Kong. And I do not travel frequently. So, I think I will try 13oz. I do not think I will make 2 trousers as I can only wear the flannel 2 months a year anyway. Glad that you mentioned about linen. I am also planning to buy Bill linen. Do you think it is a good choice?

Audi, happy to learn that 13oz is a good weight for flannel. Excited to see my first flannel made up.

[Tony_san]

It sounds really fragile! Sounds like wearing it twice a week is teasing the fabric. Allow sufficient rest time by only wearing twice a month sounds also crazily dedicated fabric.

[alden]

The 16oz is really too heavy for weather in Hong Kong. And I do not travel frequently. So, I think I will try 13oz. I do not think I will make 2 trousers as I can only wear the flannel 2 months a year anyway. Glad that you mentioned about linen. I am also planning to buy Bill linen. Do you think it is a good choice?

I can imagine 16 ozs is too warm where you live. If you are going to make a lighter weight flannel, I would suggest you use the Fox 13-14 ozs without cashmere and make two trousers....anyway.

The W Bill linen is ok. It is a mid range linen industrially made on 150 cms and not nearly as tight a weave as the best quality linen. It will wrinkle quite a bit and will feel a bit empty in the hand over time...after a few washes. If you are using it for casual wear, it is fine. If you are using it also for a more formal or business application..you might want something more substantial.

Cheers