I wonder about SR quality

[stephenm]

I bought a three piece suit in the last 18 months, the waistcoat split on a front seam, the owner said it hadn't been made correctly, when it was taken back.

I bought an odd jacket a year ago, the lining has come apart in two places, the inner lining on both sleeves is detaching. This will be the second time it has had issues with the lining.

I bought a two piece from a very expensive tailor. On wearing it for the first time, I saw a seam on the trousers wasn't made up correctly. Returning it to the cutter, he tried to huff and puff and suggest it had been "caught" on something and somewhat grudgingly took it back for repair. When collecting it, a different salesman gave it to me and told me the trousers should never have left the shop initially, they weren't finished properly. Certainly the finishing applied was in a completely different league on this follow-on occasion.

I like decent clothing, I made my way to the top ranges of the big off the peg labels and moved to SR in the late 90s. Frustratingly, the higher I go up the SR price scale, the more problems I encounter. The three garments above cost me close to £11,000 in total. I have never had a fault of any sort on a Canali suit or others in that price bracket.

I'm pretty disillusioned at present. I could buy a couple of very good off the peg Brioni suits for the price of the last suit mentioned.

[davidhuh]

I bought a three piece suit in the last 18 months, the waistcoat split on a front seam, the owner said it hadn't been made correctly, when it was taken back.

I bought an odd jacket a year ago, the lining has come apart in two places, the inner lining on both sleeves is detaching. This will be the second time it has had issues with the lining.

I bought a two piece from a very expensive tailor. On wearing it for the first time, I saw a seam on the trousers wasn't made up correctly.

I like decent clothing, I made my way to the top ranges of the big off the peg labels and moved to SR in the late 90s. Frustratingly, the higher I go up the SR price scale, the more problems I encounter. The three garments above cost me close to £11,000 in total.

Dear Stephen,

May I ask you one thing first: how many tailors were involved in this exercise? And how many repeated commissions did you place with one tailor?

cheers, David

[stephenm]

Two tailors, two cutters (one who did the first and last items, having moved).

I have had three suits and the aforementioned jacket from one tailor, the last three in a short period. One suit from the last tailor.

[pagean]

I've always stuck to the much smaller former row alumni (Mahon, etc)-I genuinely think they care more about the final result. Can't comment on my experiences with the big houses (because I don't have any), but I don't hear many good things.

That being said, for that level of spend, you need to get absolute satisfaction. Keep irritating them, until you're happy with the result. I'm not sure if you're British or American, but my generalisation of today is that Americans complain much better and more effectively than British and therefore achieve better outcomes. If you don't get satisfaction, call your credit card company and dispute the charge (if you used a cc)

Don't do anything drastic, like Brioni...

[davidhuh]

Two tailors, two cutters (one who did the first and last items, having moved).

I have had three suits and the aforementioned jacket from one tailor, the last three in a short period. One suit from the last tailor.

Dear Stephen,

so we have 2 tailors, 2 cutters and 3 suits in a short period. Hm.

Do you feel you have built a good business relation with any of these craftsmen? You said earlier "the higher up the SR price scale, the more problems you encounter".

My experience with tailors is that the high price you may pay does not save you from disaster. When you encounter a problem with a tailor, do your very best to get it fixed, taking him by his professional pride. When you get the tailor to fix a problem and commission another order (small), you show him trust. If he is a honest craftsman, he will recognise your good intentions and fix the problem without discussion.

Bespeaking suits is different from shopping expensive RTW. Mistakes happen - every cloth has its own character, every customer too - a good tailor needs to master the cloth, the cut and the customer

Looking at your problems - an issue with lining in one case. This is easy to fix, therefore get it fixed. When you commission a suit from SR, you also get a life time warranty for it. Make the respective tailor understand that this is what you expect. Next is a trouser seam, and the second sales person was honest to you, telling you these trousers should not have left the shop... The seam is easy to fix, no?

Now, how to move forward? I understand your frustration, but hopeless it is not. Make up your mind if you want to stay with one of the tailors you are in touch with, or even with both. If you stay, make another commission, just one. Agree on the fittings without rushing things, and see what happens. If you stay with the bigger SR house, make appointments when bespeaking and for fittings, thus making sure you are dealing always with the same person.

Pagean says something important I believe. For a big SR house, you are one of who knows how many clients, and many times you go there, you will be in touch with a different person - unless you set appointments with a specific person. With a smaller or independent tailor, you are more important and you will always have to deal with the same person. Decide if you want to parade a well know SR house like a brand, or if you prefer a long lasting business relation with one tailor. Once you have found this man, stick to him.

I'm not speaking against the bigger houses in general. Working with them might be a little more challenging in the beginning. What you should avoid is going from one tailor to the next. This would be the recipe for disaster.

What I always do when going to a tailor is wearing one of his suits in the best possible way. If everything is great, it will fill him with pride. If there is a little problem, he will notice and fix it

I hope this makes sense.

Cheers, David

[Costi]

Wise words, David.

Don't do anything drastic, like Brioni...

[andreyb]

Re: SR quality. Apparently, it is slipping, as your and other experiences suggest.

But what can we do? Italian tailors produce different garments -- one can't replicate SR by going to Italy (and vice versa). I still haven't heard of even a single case when someone was a regular SR customer, became unsatisfied with quality, went to Italy, became a regular customer (as opposed to putting a single order!) and lived happily ever since.

What I find most appaling, though, is that you had problems convincing your tailors to fix mistakes / quality issues. This shouldn't be! -- mistakes (even big ones) do happen, but they should be fixed without a hitch.

Andrey

[stephenm]

I hear what you say David, but two points -

The "hm" in your first comment suggests a question over my using two tailors for a number of commissions in a short period. I was building my wardrobe, hence the number. The cutter who led the first suit was the one who did the last suit from the second house. So I liked his first suit, gave his replacement a try with three other pieces, liked the first suit best of all, so "followed" the cutter to his new house. Hence the chronology. Overall I have quality issues with two of his pieces, and one with the jacket by the other cutter. So I am trying to follow your advice by building a relationship. But at £4,500 per suit, I wouldn't expect having to court him to get things right.

On quality. I like a good car. If I buy a nice Porsche it tends to be reliable and not need to go back to the workshop because a body part has come loose. I have always admired Ferrari and when my new car arrives, I don't expect to have to be nice to the workshop technician in order he sends it to me in good working condition.

I sometimes find the acceptance of quality issues on SR puzzling and also how much the client is supposed to work with the cutter, seeking to get him to understand his requirements. I think perhaps perspective has been lost. I recently had two handbuilt items made in Italy, by a man who is regarded as the very best in his field. He made the process very simple and accessible, asked the right questions, made a couple of small suggestions - both products arrived on time, and were perfect. Compared to SR, the process was a delight.

[Frans]

I have had some sport coats made with one of the better London tailors. There were issues with each of the coats.
In one case I was told the jacket "should not have left the house...". The dialogue was honest and open, though.

[Hesketh]

"On quality. I like a good car. If I buy a nice Porsche it tends to be reliable and not need to go back to the workshop because a body part has come loose. I have always admired Ferrari and when my new car arrives, I don't expect to have to be nice to the workshop technician in order he sends it to me in good working condition. "

To be fair, this is a rather poor analogy. Both Porsche and Ferrari are produced now in batches, in automated factories, not by hand.
If you had been buying in the 50s/60s, when, Ferrari at least, was still a largely bespoke product, clothed by an individual Carrosseria, you would have had to have a very good working relationship with yuor workshop technician. If you buy one of them now you will find it's still true.

[Scot]

I use one of the smaller SR houses. After about a dozen suits/coats we are still tinkering with the pattern - but that is really just me gradually refining my idea of what I want to achieve. There has been nothing fundamentally wrong with anything they have made for me. And I have had no issues whatsoever with the quality of construction - in fact I think you could run over their coats with a tractor and they would come up smiling. Only complaint - chalk not brushed off on delivery

[stephenm]

"On quality. I like a good car. If I buy a nice Porsche it tends to be reliable and not need to go back to the workshop because a body part has come loose. I have always admired Ferrari and when my new car arrives, I don't expect to have to be nice to the workshop technician in order he sends it to me in good working condition. "

To be fair, this is a rather poor analogy. Both Porsche and Ferrari are produced now in batches, in automated factories, not by hand.
If you had been buying in the 50s/60s, when, Ferrari at least, was still a largely bespoke product, clothed by an individual Carrosseria, you would have had to have a very good working relationship with yuor workshop technician. If you buy one of them now you will find it's still true.

I was making the point that high cost/ high end items should not need so much attention, they should be built or made correctly. My final paragraph may be the better example - two bespoke Italian items, high end, the process was a delight, the product is bulletproof and hasn't needed any attention.

[davidhuh]

I hear what you say David, but two points -

The "hm" in your first comment suggests a question over my using two tailors for a number of commissions in a short period. I was building my wardrobe, hence the number. The cutter who led the first suit was the one who did the last suit from the second house. So I liked his first suit, gave his replacement a try with three other pieces, liked the first suit best of all, so "followed" the cutter to his new house. Hence the chronology. Overall I have quality issues with two of his pieces, and one with the jacket by the other cutter. So I am trying to follow your advice by building a relationship. But at £4,500 per suit, I wouldn't expect having to court him to get things right.

Dear Stephen,

thank you, now I understand better. I would never have commissioned three suits from the "replacement", after one good experience in the same house. But is it correct, you are more satisfied with what "replacement cutter" did for you - so why don't you stick with him?

Nobody says you need to court your cutter. The bespeaker is the boss - without behaving like a "Gewittergoj" - being a respectful gentleman is just fine (I make no assumption about you!).

The other thing I would have done differently is going to a house with this price tag while being an unexperienced bespeaker. You get very good quality on SR for half the price my dear, it allows you to get more experienced in a more relaxed way. If you are building a wardrobe and need output your first tailor cannot cope with, take a second tailor. That's what I did. Now I use both and everybody is happy.

On quality. I like a good car. If I buy a nice Porsche it tends to be reliable and not need to go back to the workshop because a body part has come loose. I have always admired Ferrari and when my new car arrives, I don't expect to have to be nice to the workshop technician in order he sends it to me in good working condition.

Somebody replied to this. If I would want a Porsche suit, I would go to Hugo Boss

I sometimes find the acceptance of quality issues on SR puzzling and also how much the client is supposed to work with the cutter, seeking to get him to understand his requirements. I think perhaps perspective has been lost. I recently had two handbuilt items made in Italy, by a man who is regarded as the very best in his field. He made the process very simple and accessible, asked the right questions, made a couple of small suggestions - both products arrived on time, and were perfect. Compared to SR, the process was a delight.

Well, you are facing challenges at one SR house apparently, and make assumptions on the entire SR. I don't think this is very fair. You had a positive experience in Italy, fine - but can I assume you didn't bespeak a suit?

Honestly, try to resolve your issues with the respective tailors in a respectful way, make another commission or move on to an independent tailor you get along with.

Cheers and good luck,
David

[gegarrenton]

On quality. I like a good car. If I buy a nice Porsche it tends to be reliable and not need to go back to the workshop because a body part has come loose. I have always admired Ferrari and when my new car arrives, I don't expect to have to be nice to the workshop technician in order he sends it to me in good working condition.

Well, you are facing challenges at one SR house apparently, and make assumptions on the entire SR. I don't think this is very fair. You had a positive experience in Italy, fine - but can I assume you didn't bespeak a suit?

I would agree with this. I think you can find the entire spectrum of experience along the Row. I personally use Poole and have had no quality issues, along with a very relaxed and enjoyable experience.

To the point about cars, I would reinforce the notion that those two brands aren't apt comparisons, you certainly be ready for plenty of service work with them!

[stephenm]

OK, ok I wish I had never mentioned cars

To David's last post, I have used four tailors on the Row over the years (since 1995), which is a pretty good cross section, so I'm most certainly not tarring the whole of the Row. I think my overall point is, the further I have moved up the ladder in terms of cost and reputation of the house in question, the more disappointments I have had with these follow on problems. The cut and style is superb. I'm just expressing a little frustration at very expensive garments having quality issues.