The Duke before the drape.
Q.E.D., Michael!
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Greger
Usually when pictures are taken, in the old days, is when you have new clothes. And for children the clothes would be something to grow into, so, larger. Larger clothes is not drape.
As far as physical development goes he a rich kid and a prince at that, so not expected to lift a finger. And further more, if he did lift a finger, he was told not to, that is what servants and nannies are for. It looks like in the military he gained some muscles and after that he probably gained some personal interest that developed some more muscles.
Hip width varies from person to person in both men and women. The larger the shoulder muscles the smaller the hips look.
The tailoring of those days is different than today, except for drape there probably isn't much change in some groups. But regular tailoring (non-drape) they are trying to improve it and to seperate the decades (the nuances of fashions, big or small). In the old days tailors pushed fashions to bring the customers back sooner than clothes wore out. Because "style never changes," so some tailors say, that leaves a lot of tailors with nothing to do, other than to look for another job. "Style Never Changes" I think has nearly killed the world of bespoke. If SR doesn't figure out that they are shooting themselves in the foot for a quick pound, how much longer will it be around? If Poole had over 500 tailors at one time, how many tailors were on the row at that time? Mass market learned from the bespoke tailors to keep fashions moving, that keeps the money coming in.
As far as physical development goes he a rich kid and a prince at that, so not expected to lift a finger. And further more, if he did lift a finger, he was told not to, that is what servants and nannies are for. It looks like in the military he gained some muscles and after that he probably gained some personal interest that developed some more muscles.
Hip width varies from person to person in both men and women. The larger the shoulder muscles the smaller the hips look.
The tailoring of those days is different than today, except for drape there probably isn't much change in some groups. But regular tailoring (non-drape) they are trying to improve it and to seperate the decades (the nuances of fashions, big or small). In the old days tailors pushed fashions to bring the customers back sooner than clothes wore out. Because "style never changes," so some tailors say, that leaves a lot of tailors with nothing to do, other than to look for another job. "Style Never Changes" I think has nearly killed the world of bespoke. If SR doesn't figure out that they are shooting themselves in the foot for a quick pound, how much longer will it be around? If Poole had over 500 tailors at one time, how many tailors were on the row at that time? Mass market learned from the bespoke tailors to keep fashions moving, that keeps the money coming in.
Greger, that is such a great post because it could fit at any point of any thread in the LL without the least disturbance to the subject at hand.
As far as fashion being the master sail of bespoke tailoring and style being a stuck anchor that will eventually sink the ship, I am pretty sure you got it all wrong. True style is the king and fashion - its fool, the buffoon, imitating its appearence and mocking it. Sometimes the fool may be struck by genius, but most of the time he is just fooling.
But I have no fear and no hope that your ideas will change, so I take a deep breath and look forward to your next post
As far as fashion being the master sail of bespoke tailoring and style being a stuck anchor that will eventually sink the ship, I am pretty sure you got it all wrong. True style is the king and fashion - its fool, the buffoon, imitating its appearence and mocking it. Sometimes the fool may be struck by genius, but most of the time he is just fooling.
But I have no fear and no hope that your ideas will change, so I take a deep breath and look forward to your next post
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Greger
Most fashions hang off of some style. Some fashions are outrageous and others are so mild you don't even notice unless you were there or somebody points them out. Most fashions of the past lasted about 5-8 years in the suit world. Some were just enough different that people wanted to "keep up with the Jones". Some of the fashions were because of the advancements of tailoring. Some fashions are a combination of ideas put together as a group. Some of those ideas can be put together with other ideas, sometimes new ideas, in another fashion. A fashion is something that is popular for a month to a several years. The purpose of fashions is entertainment and to keep the money moving. The current fashion of narrow lapels and trouser legs are sorta like the 60s. But the combination of ideas will be somewhat different than the 60s. What is nice is you can pick out the different ideas (a part of a fashion here and another there and so on) for over 150 years and look absolutely fine. Some parts of fashions stand out like wide lapels of the 1840s? and 1970s (the 1840 was even wider). What is nice about bespoke is that we have over 200 years of ideas (parts of fashions) to grab from and if these are mild ideas most people won't even notice. Some people will notice that they can't find it in the store and they might come to you and ask where you got what they can't get in a store- then you can send them straight to a tailor and get another poor soul hooked.
No indeed, they are two separate elements, though they are often seen together in RTW jackets, especially in the U.S, along with a short undersleeve (very acute angle of sleeve set). Most of Cary Grant's suits had well-placed and -shaped armholes, even after he adopted the extended shoulder, or he could not have been as active as he was in his films. Try doing the acrobatics he pulled in Holiday (1938) in a jacket with a low armhole and it will either be over your head or something will rip.carl browne wrote:Does a more built-up shoulder have to mean a lower armhole?"
Eclecticism works fine in salads, but in dress... Style has an underlying idea, even if it is not conceptualized in a rational manner - the red thread is always there.Greger wrote:What is nice is you can pick out the different ideas (a part of a fashion here and another there and so on) for over 150 years and look absolutely fine.
What is nice about bespoke is that you can work together with a good artisan to style your clothes in an elegant, flattering and harmonious way, skipping all the changing whims that fashion designers and fashion shops try to shove down your throat to make you spend money every new season. Some people will notice that with the clothes they buy from expensive fashion stores they never seem to look as well dressed as you do, even though it's hard to say what's so special about your dress - then you can send them off to find a good tailor and remind them that nothing worth learning can ever be taught, like Wilde said.Greger wrote:What is nice about bespoke is that we have over 200 years of ideas (parts of fashions) to grab from and if these are mild ideas most people won't even notice. Some people will notice that they can't find it in the store and they might come to you and ask where you got what they can't get in a store- then you can send them straight to a tailor and get another poor soul hooked.
I like the narrow trousers and the jackets seem to fit quite well indeed. He does not look so much "tiny" to me as lithe.
Pardon my gross ignorance: by "drape" it sounds as if the knowledgeable on the site mean a jacket with a fairly well-built-up shoulder, bias-cut waist and long-ish "tails" (i.e. what I, perhaps errounesouly, think of as the classic Saville Row look)?
Pardon my gross ignorance: by "drape" it sounds as if the knowledgeable on the site mean a jacket with a fairly well-built-up shoulder, bias-cut waist and long-ish "tails" (i.e. what I, perhaps errounesouly, think of as the classic Saville Row look)?
Luca, the drape mentioned here usually refers to the cut made popular by Scholte in the late '20s and '30s, with shoulders at, or slightly extended beyond, the natural shoulder point (but not necessarily built up), and a well-defined waist (usually, as you say, combined on Savile Row with a high armhole and a cupped skirt). The most characteristic element of the "drape cut" is fullness in the cloth below the sleeve extending to the outside of the chest and back. So when the arms are lowered naturally, the extra cloth makes a soft fold (or "drape") running vertically (or on a slight diagonal) from the shoulder blades in back toward the waist, and from the front of the shoulder in the front, where it joins with a slightly swelled chest.
The legend is that Scholte got the idea from looking at the overcoats of British guards regiments, which were gathered at the waist in back with a belt. The "drape" effect in suit jackets allowed him to create the illusion of a more athletic physique on a wide range of real body types. The amount of fullness or drape can vary from quite subtle to something that makes the jacket look like it's too big (especially if the waist is not suppressed very much--some Anderson & Sheppard jackets approach this effect).
Often this fullness at the blades and upper chest/blades ("drape") is contrasted with what in English is called a "clean" or smoothly fitted chest. You no doubt know that it's possible to direct more of the fullness toward the blades or toward the chest, so that some jackets look relatively clean in the chest but have more drape at the blades. In the classic drape style there is more often a balance, with a comparable amount of fullness at both chest and blades.
People on this and other sites often use "drape" as a shorthand term for the amount of fullness visible at the outer chest and/or blades, without intending to refer to the historical cut as a complete package, so to speak.
In the context of this thread, the importance of the drape cut would be that, as Alden points out, it has by definition more fullness (the trousers would be cut slightly wider from the seat down to harmonize with the jacket), so that, in the case of Windsor, his small stature is not emphasized. The fullness, even if subtle--say on a business suit--can also impart a more relaxed, less "stiff" air to the suit and to its wearer.
Additions / emendations from our tailors welcome.
The legend is that Scholte got the idea from looking at the overcoats of British guards regiments, which were gathered at the waist in back with a belt. The "drape" effect in suit jackets allowed him to create the illusion of a more athletic physique on a wide range of real body types. The amount of fullness or drape can vary from quite subtle to something that makes the jacket look like it's too big (especially if the waist is not suppressed very much--some Anderson & Sheppard jackets approach this effect).
Often this fullness at the blades and upper chest/blades ("drape") is contrasted with what in English is called a "clean" or smoothly fitted chest. You no doubt know that it's possible to direct more of the fullness toward the blades or toward the chest, so that some jackets look relatively clean in the chest but have more drape at the blades. In the classic drape style there is more often a balance, with a comparable amount of fullness at both chest and blades.
People on this and other sites often use "drape" as a shorthand term for the amount of fullness visible at the outer chest and/or blades, without intending to refer to the historical cut as a complete package, so to speak.
In the context of this thread, the importance of the drape cut would be that, as Alden points out, it has by definition more fullness (the trousers would be cut slightly wider from the seat down to harmonize with the jacket), so that, in the case of Windsor, his small stature is not emphasized. The fullness, even if subtle--say on a business suit--can also impart a more relaxed, less "stiff" air to the suit and to its wearer.
Additions / emendations from our tailors welcome.
Thanks for the very clear and useful explanation. Based on what you say, it would seem that most of the tailors (not Saville Row, I'm afraid, my budget would not permit that) I've run across suggested/were biased toward little or no drape. As a young man, I favoured loose-fitting clothes for comfort (and always had to tlak them into looser, larger/lower armhole arragements but as I grow older I'm becomign more acustomed to less ample proportions. Still findign ti difficult to convince the British that if you have even moderately ample shoulders, all that padding is possibly de trop.
At any rate, thanks also for the pcitures, i think the 'tweedy' jackets and suits look excellent on HRH.
At any rate, thanks also for the pcitures, i think the 'tweedy' jackets and suits look excellent on HRH.
Dear Luca,Luca wrote:As a young man, I favoured loose-fitting clothes for comfort (and always had to tlak them into looser, larger/lower armhole arragements but as I grow older I'm becomign more acustomed to less ample proportions. Still findign ti difficult to convince the British that if you have even moderately ample shoulders, all that padding is possibly de trop.
"Drape cut" has little to do with "loose fitting". Also, tailors such as Anderson & Sheppard and all the great craftsmen coming from their school use either little or no padding.
A & S has published a nice coffee table book last year. It may help you to get a picture. Or you read Mr Thomas Mahon's blog, The English Cut - a lot of information is there. Or collect some pictures of Mr Bruce Boyer
cheers, David
David, you are so right. In fact, the higher the armhole the finer the drape effect. The original drape effect was much more subtle.
Luca, as David and Frank write, the drape cut is not about loose garments, but about some extra comfort built into certain spots of a coat. The waist is not loose at all in the drape cut. The sleeve is more ample in the upper part (though it is inserted in a smaller armhole), but it tapers toward the wrist. The "drape look" is just the effect of a functional approach that happens to please the eye, too (if it does...).
Some tailors like to cut for immobile wax figures or for the dummies in their workshop. Their clothes look perfect when one stands still (or for a shopwindow display), but misbehave as soon as one starts to move around.
This depends a lot upon one's carriage, the way one bears one's body. Those who walk and move energetically, accompany their conversation by ample gestures and generally tend to dynamically "occupy more volume" in space, will probably look and feel better in a drape coat, while they would look restrained with a lean cut and the coat itself would look strained to the limit of the seams' and fabric's resistance. Those who bear themselves with a minimum expense of energy, hardly move their arms at all, tend to be a little more "stiff" in carriage, would probably look more appropriate without much drape, which would seem an unnecessary bunching of cloth.
In fact, one can only appreciate drape in motion, it is a dynamic feature, what it looks like in a still picture of a man standing to attention is irrelevant. The notable difference is between what a lean cut coat looks like in motion vs. a drape cut coat.
Some tailors like to cut for immobile wax figures or for the dummies in their workshop. Their clothes look perfect when one stands still (or for a shopwindow display), but misbehave as soon as one starts to move around.
This depends a lot upon one's carriage, the way one bears one's body. Those who walk and move energetically, accompany their conversation by ample gestures and generally tend to dynamically "occupy more volume" in space, will probably look and feel better in a drape coat, while they would look restrained with a lean cut and the coat itself would look strained to the limit of the seams' and fabric's resistance. Those who bear themselves with a minimum expense of energy, hardly move their arms at all, tend to be a little more "stiff" in carriage, would probably look more appropriate without much drape, which would seem an unnecessary bunching of cloth.
In fact, one can only appreciate drape in motion, it is a dynamic feature, what it looks like in a still picture of a man standing to attention is irrelevant. The notable difference is between what a lean cut coat looks like in motion vs. a drape cut coat.
The original idea of drape was very subtle with just a bit more "chest emphasis" a wee bit more shoulder and a trim sleeve. A softer more fluent over all look.. Much of the drape effect came from the construction of the canvas. Soft and supple. Later drapes became more voluminous and "drapey" and in my opinion a bit too much. Too boxy. The tailor who taught Raphael was an original soft drape tailor. These suits were even pressed and shaped differently. Raphael calls the drape "The Cachet". Sounds nice.
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marburyvmadison
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My exact same sentiments. Found the later versions of the drape too voluminous and drapey as well.old henry wrote:The original idea of drape was very subtle with just a bit more "chest emphasis" a wee bit more shoulder and a trim sleeve. A softer more fluent over all look.. Much of the drape effect came from the construction of the canvas. Soft and supple. Later drapes became more voluminous and "drapey" and in my opinion a bit too much. Too boxy. The tailor who taught Raphael was an original soft drape tailor. These suits were even pressed and shaped differently. Raphael calls the drape "The Cachet". Sounds nice.
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