T&A in 1985 and Today

"The brute covers himself, the rich man and the fop adorn themselves, the elegant man dresses!"

-Honore de Balzac

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andreyb
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Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:34 pm

Gentlemen,

I stumbled upon an article on T&A bespoke shirts, published in NYT back in 1985. It is interesting to compare some facts and numbers quoted there with how things are today -- using data from James Sherwood's latest book.

Annual bespoke output and where the shirts are made

Back in 1985: "With or without hand- sewn buttonholes, ''in excess of 20,000'' made-to-measure shirts are sold annually by Turnbull & Asser, according to Mr. Williams. The shop employs a workroom force of 300, which - deployed in five workrooms throughout London - finishes between 40 and 50 dozen shirts a week."

Today: "A relatively modest 500 bespoke shirts are made per annum. Mr Gale still takes a minimum of nineteen measurements for a client, and hand-cuts the paper pattern. It is then sent to Turnbull's factory in Gloucester, where the measurements are entered into a CAD (computer-aided design) system..."

How shirts are cut

In 1985: "The shirts are cut - on a wood block, with a razor-edged knife - in a basement below the Churchill Room."

Today: "...and the cloth is cut using a small hand saw and edges finished off with a pair of shears."

How often and for how long cutters visit US

In 1985: "Four representatives of the firm - fitters, cutters and patternmakers - establish headquarters at a New York hotel (for 10 days in the spring, 20 days in the fall) where they make available the same fat sample books of fabric kept in the London shop, as well as stock shirts."

Today: No information in Sherwood's book. I heard that measurements are taken by the staff from NY shop, with no cutters or fitters involved. Is this correct?

How T&A degraded so quickly and profoundly? From 20,000 to 500, and from five workrooms in London to zero? Al-Fayeds are to blame? :o

Andrey
Man at C&A
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Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:42 pm

Whilst the Jermyn Street shop is still a gem, the Old Broad Street branch is something to be avoided.
bond_and_beyond
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Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:57 pm

They only make 500 bespoke shirts a year? So one newbie bespeaker who orders the six shirt minimum accounts for over 1% of their bespoke trade? Truly baffling...

BB
Mark Seitelman
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Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:46 pm

andreyb wrote:
* * *

Annual bespoke output and where the shirts are made

* * *

Today: "A relatively modest 500 bespoke shirts are made per annum. Mr Gale still takes a minimum of nineteen measurements for a client, and hand-cuts the paper pattern. It is then sent to Turnbull's factory in Gloucester, where the measurements are entered into a CAD (computer-aided design) system..."

How shirts are cut

* * *

Today: "...and the cloth is cut using a small hand saw and edges finished off with a pair of shears."

How often and for how long cutters visit US

In 1985: "Four representatives of the firm - fitters, cutters and patternmakers - establish headquarters at a New York hotel (for 10 days in the spring, 20 days in the fall) where they make available the same fat sample books of fabric kept in the London shop, as well as stock shirts."

Today: No information in Sherwood's book. I heard that measurements are taken by the staff from NY shop, with no cutters or fitters involved. Is this correct?

How T&A degraded so quickly and profoundly? From 20,000 to 500, and from five workrooms in London to zero? Al-Fayeds are to blame? :o

Andrey

The present 500 bespoke estimate is way off.

I have only patronized the NYC store, and I cannot address the status of the London stores.

Bespoke is doing very well in NYC. It always has.

Incidentally, the NYC store is less than one year old. Turnbull moved a few doors down from its prior spot. The new store is bigger and more beautiful than the old store, and the new one also has three floors. While the ready to wear shirts and ties occupy the entire second floor, about one half of the third floor is bespoke. Therefore, one can surmise that bespoke is a prominent part of the business.

The NYC bespoke department is headed by Robert Gillotte. He is not a shirt cutter. He is a fitter. He has been doing this at least ten years. He is excellent.

No shirts are cut in NYC. I don't think that many, if any, shirts are cut in London. Turnbull has a large, modern factory for both RTW and bespoke in the English countryside.

Due to its permanent presence in NYC, Turnbull no longer has the need for NYC visits from the London staff. Customers have the convenience of dropping-in at any time.
Last edited by Mark Seitelman on Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Badden
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Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:12 pm

There is no way that 500 bespoke shirt number is correct.
andreyb
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Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:53 am

Perhaps 500 shirts figure is for London store only?

As for how NY bespoke department operates, this tidbit from "Permanent Style" blog entry on T&A explains it all:
When a new customer’s measurements arrive at the Gloucester factory they are entered into CAD (computer-aided design) system. David Gale’s team at Bury Street in London sends in old-fashioned paper patterns. New York sends measurements by email. There isn’t much advantage to either, but those from America certainly get to Gloucester quicker (particularly given Britain’s striking postal service).
No need for cutters visiting NY, indeed.

One can argue with Mr Crompton (author of PS blog) that "there isn’t much advantage" of an experienced cutter creating an individual pattern vs a computer program generating one from measurments supplied by an operator.

Andrey
Mark Seitelman
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Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:30 pm

andreyb wrote:

* * *

As for how NY bespoke department operates, this tidbit from "Permanent Style" blog entry on T&A explains it all:
When a new customer’s measurements arrive at the Gloucester factory they are entered into CAD (computer-aided design) system. David Gale’s team at Bury Street in London sends in old-fashioned paper patterns. New York sends measurements by email. There isn’t much advantage to either, but those from America certainly get to Gloucester quicker (particularly given Britain’s striking postal service).
No need for cutters visiting NY, indeed.

One can argue with Mr Crompton (author of PS blog) that "there isn’t much advantage" of an experienced cutter creating an individual pattern vs a computer program generating one from measurments supplied by an operator.

Andrey

The foregoing is my understanding of how NYC's branch works. Rob Gillotte e-mails his measurements and photos to the factory. NYC's turnaround time is very quick. My last order took about 2 weeks.
hectorm
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Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:20 pm

Man at C&A wrote:Whilst the Jermyn Street shop is still a gem, the Old Broad Street branch is something to be avoided.
The Jermyn Steet corner shop is handsome indeed but I understand that in London, A&S bespoke services are now only offered at their shop a few doors down on Bury Street.
NJS

Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:58 pm

hectorm wrote:
Man at C&A wrote:Whilst the Jermyn Street shop is still a gem, the Old Broad Street branch is something to be avoided.
The Jermyn Steet corner shop is handsome indeed but I understand that in London, A&S bespoke services are now only offered at their shop a few doors down on Bury Street.
''T&A''
hectorm
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Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:08 pm

Thank you, Nicholas, for picking that up.
Definitely I meant bespoke services of T&A and not A&S.
Cufflink79
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Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:12 pm

The prices went up a whole lot since 1985. I need a time machine.

Best Regards,

Cufflink79
cathach
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Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:39 pm

Cufflink79 wrote:The prices went up a whole lot since 1985. I need a time machine.

Best Regards,

Cufflink79
Well you were hardly paying $6 for a coffee in 1985.
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