Good shirtmaker in UK

[Berwick]

I agree that you are not making a new allegation, but you are repeating an allegation second hand. The allegation being "And another difference between UK and the good FR makers, is that nearly all of the former are made in one single factory outside London." This is clearly unsupported by the facts and photographs as mentioned above.

By all means issue your warnings that, in your experience, the quality of shirtmaking in the UK is not as good as one finds with certain artisans in France or Italy (or perhaps the US with Mr Kabbaz). It may even be the case that many makers use a single factory for their "MTM" shirts. But the makers mentioned clearly cut the cloth themselves to an idividually prepared and subsequently modified pattern for their "bespoke" offerings, and as shown, many use their own workshops.

[Badden]

Michael,

I have visited the Budd 'factory' in Andover, and my cousin has visited both T&A and Emma Willis in Gloucester. And, as any client of Meyer & Mortimer can attest, Sean O'Flynn's facility in Sackville is out there for anyone to see.

Its worth noting that all these makers (Budd, T&A, Emma Willis) have an extensive MTO / stock special business (H&K once admitted to me that its considerably larger than their bespoke business.) It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if that MTO work is farmed out to the big factory you refer to.

As for all this chatter about true Italian bespoke and tawdry English MTM, I have tried bespoke shirts from Italian makers who offer all the muslin fittings (Mimmo Siviglia in Rome, Piccolo in Naples), and frankly my English shirts from Budd have always fit better. I could care less for how bespoke these shirts truly are, as long as the fit (and price!) is superior.

Badden

[Badden]

I should also point out that there isn’t much of a difference between the vaunted muslin fittings and the UK model AS LONG AS the shirtmaker in question is amenable to making as many changes as required to the initial ‘test’ shirt. Budd revised my initial shirt (of a 4-shirt minimum order) four times w/o complaint. The end result was that my initial shirt (and subsequent shirts) fit as well as any muslin-derived model.

Mike of Geneva Shirts in NYC also believes that the muslin model has some disadvantages – notably that the muslin cloth often doesn’t behave exactly like a standard cotton poplin / broadcloth. For that reason, he also prefers to follow the UK model. Maybe this was all just self-serving from his perspective, but let’s not pretend that the best shirts are only available from makers who allow for muslin fittings.

[Kayak81]

When I went to pick up my first shirt from Sean, he said that it wasn't quite ready, but he took me downstairs where my shirt was hanging on a dummy. He then proceeded to give instructions to one of the two lovely ladies in Andrey's photo, as to how to place the collar buttons to give the collar a proper roll. This doesn't necessarily mean that this particular shirt was made in-house, let alone that all of his shirts are made in-house, but it does imply that he has some kind of in-house capability. I didn't see any people other than the 2 ladies in the workroom though, which left me wondering who does the work for Meyer & Mortimer.

As I noted in a previous post, Sean charged my credit card for my second order before going on his summer holiday, even though no shirts had been shipped at that point. Upon discovering the charge, I called and spoke with one of the women who said she would look into it. She contacted me the next day to say that she couldn't find any evidence the shirts had been shipped and that I would have to speak with Sean when he returned. After returning from vacation, Sean assured me that the shirts were completed and that he would ship them out right away. It took him 3 weeks to send them though (even though I was calling twice a week), and there were some minor problems that crept into this second order. When I called Sean about these problems, he said that it was infuriating that "they didn't get it right", as everything was clearly laid out on the paperwork. This indicates to me that Sean doesn't have full control of his production processes. I have a hard time believing that Sean was simply too busy to mail my shirts out for 3 weeks. On the other hand, it makes perfect sense that he sent my order to an outside workshop and charged my card thinking the order would be shipped while he was away, only to discover a problem when he returned.

It would be helpful to know how Sean's shirts are really made. Even after the problems I've experienced, I might still use Sean again. I would like some clarity as to his production processes though. Sean charges GBP185/US$300 for a shirt made of Alumo Selva or Supraluxe fabric. Paris in NY charges $425 for a shirt of the same material and my understanding is that Kabbaz charges about $1,100. I plan to try a shirt from Paris and then decide how to proceed.

I'd love to try one of the shirtmakers in Paris or Naples, but it's not a realistic option for me at the moment. Although I'd like to drink Grand Cru on a regular basis, budget and time constraints dictate something else most evenings!

[Rowly]

my English shirts from Budd have always fit better. I could care less for how bespoke these shirts truly are, as long as the fit (and price!) is superior.

To see what the extra benefits might be, I called at Budd intending to try the bespoke route.
The very helpful man assured me that I was lucky in that their rtw. was such a good fit on me, that bespoke would not be any better. I'm sure there are many bespoke clients who don't really benefit from it other than enjoying a bit of pampering.

[gherrmann]

so, dear members (not to derail this thread entirely), what's a poor sod stuck in New York (who doesn't wish to pay Kabbaz rates) to do about getting some decently fitting shirts? I was thinking about going with one of the traveling UK outfits, but this thread has rained on that parade at least a little bit.

thanks in advance for any suggestions.

[Simon A]

You could consider Ascot Chang of Hong Kong, either with their travelling cutter who travels to New York with tailor Gordon Yao several times a year, or visit their New York store.

110 Central Park South, New York

I have only patronised their Hong Kong business, which I think is cheaper than their US operation. The fit was reasonably good and the price quite acceptable, about the same as a good quality RTW shirt. It's not Charvet but I would say it is good value for money.

[Frog in Suit]

They also point to shirts being made off premises, far from the shirtmaker/cutter/fitter.
If Sean Fynn says he can't get the length of his shirt sleeves right, as reported by Manself, how are we to believe that the lovely ladies in the photo, who are there with him, can't get them right. Maybe the lady is his mother.

Unless I am very much mistaken, and I do not think I am, the picture shown in Andreyb’s post above:



was taken in the basement of Jones Chalk & Dawson / Meyer and Mortimer, on or rather, under, Sackville Street, at the back of the workshop. Sean O’Flynn may be youthful, much younger than I am -- not that THAT means a lot anymore, alas -- but not young enough to be these young ladies’ offspring.

The door at the far end leads to Jones Chalk & Dawson / Meyer and Mortimer’s pattern room.
You might not like London shirtmakers, and I am certainly not qualified to pass judgment on the quality of their products, but casting unsupported aspersions does not help your argument.

Frog in Suit

[Frans]

I had six shirts made by Stephen Lachter.(...) A couple were slightly too wide at the cuff, so slid over the hand if the cuff link had any slack.

All my shirts are wide at the cuff, so they do slide up. When I expressed my astonishment, Mr O'Flynn said that he does not think this is essential, but I cannot remember what reason he gave.

Did other forum members that have used Mr. O'Flynn's services also get shirt cuffs that are too wide?
I wear a watch on one hand, but I can easily hide a big "Audemars Piggy" under both sleeves

[Kayak81]

so, dear members (not to derail this thread entirely), what's a poor sod stuck in New York (who doesn't wish to pay Kabbaz rates) to do about getting some decently fitting shirts? I was thinking about going with one of the traveling UK outfits, but this thread has rained on that parade at least a little bit.

thanks in advance for any suggestions.

I would definitely stay away from Geneva. They ignored all of my requests, cut a shirt that was skin tight (even though I requested a looser, more comfortable fit) and then proceeded to argue with me when I brought the shirt back to discuss the fit and other problems. They even argued that the collar buttons, which were obviously askew, were placed correctly and that it was my dropped shoulder which made them look askew. When I tried to discuss specific areas that were too tight or restrictive, they again ignored me and just said that they would give me another inch all around. To their credit, they did take the shirt back and send me a new one, but the new shirt still didn't fit as well as some MTM shirts that I have. And the collar buttons were still askew.

CEGO seems to be mostly MTM and, at least in the reviews I've read, people either love them or hate them. I've heard that Ascot Chang's fit is a bit skimpy. A friend of mine who is a runner, told me that his AC shirts seemed a bit tight after an injury forced him to stop running for 2 weeks. I've also read reviews though where people have said that AC produced great fitting shirts, particularly when copying a shirt that already fits well. My understanding is that AC sends your measurements to their factory in Hong Kong, where a pattern is created & the shirt produced. This seems to be a step down from the London shirtmakers, who, at a minimum, create the patterns themselves.

I'm going to try Paris next. If that doesn't work, then it's back to London for me.

From my perspective it boils down to getting a quality you're happy with at a price you're comfortable paying. Budd/O'Flynn/Lachter all seem to charge about US$300/shirt (not including VAT) which seems to be about 1/3 - 1/4 the cost of the truly bespoke shirtmakers. It also seems to be a bit cheaper than Ascot Chang or Paris. I don't think the London shirtmakers are necessarily a bad deal if you're hapy with the quality and fit of the shirts you receive.

My particular Grand Cru this year is going to be the Everest Cashmere. Everything else is going to be Waitrose Red for awhile!

[cathach]

so, dear members (not to derail this thread entirely), what's a poor sod stuck in New York (who doesn't wish to pay Kabbaz rates) to do about getting some decently fitting shirts? I was thinking about going with one of the traveling UK outfits, but this thread has rained on that parade at least a little bit.

thanks in advance for any suggestions.

There's a shirtmaker I found online in Buffalo NY by the name of Pamela Erny http://off-the-cuff-style.blogspot.ie/ Scroll down the page and read what she as to say about Italian cotton vs. Easycare, on that basis it seems worth a try and furthermore is local.

[st.tully]

Well, I suppose I am fortunate in that a Budd 17.5 rtw fits me almost perfectly. Mr. Butcher says that his only change would be 1/8 inch on the right sleeve. Of course I'm limited to what Budd has in stock but I do make my requests and they eventually arrive.

The real problem that I have is laundry. I go through about 15 dress shirts per week. I send them all to the local laundry here in North Carolina. The job they do is barely adequate. Indeed, I select fabrics that will withstand the commercial laundry process. This means I'm spending about $150.00 per shirt to buy and 2.00 per laundry. I have got a few silk shirts from Budd and a few sea islands and of course my formal shirts - for these I wait until I have eight ready for cleaning and send them to Rave in Arizona.

[yialabis]

As many have put in a much better way than me in the past , the shirt is the epitome of a mans style , it says a lot of who he is and one has to make sure that the kind of shirt he wears is in close interrelation with his inner self .. As Quentin Bell says .. “it is as though the fabric were indeed a natural extension of the body , or even of the soul” . I can’t wear English shirts , simply because they do not sync , they are not coherent with who I’m and how I express my self through out my day .. I’m not saying they are not made well . I have tried bespoke shirts from a couple of the old Jermyn street makers ..They were ok in general , always a very polite service and a bit overpriced in my opinion . Also the work done on the shirts can not justify the minimum order requirement .. But none of the above is the main issue for me ..What has always been the issue and it took me some time to figure , is that I felt restricted (not from the fit) in an English shirt , too well stitched , too squared , not the collars I wanted (they can do Italian collars , but Italians do them a lot better) and also I never felt that the makers could really understand me or relate to what I really wanted ..(my fault maybe)? I believe that one should choose a maker primarily by using a great deal of endoscopy and decide what kind of a shirt school will express his style. I use two Roman shirt makers and one from my hometown Athens . They all did one -two fittings before they prepared my first pattern, they use hand stitching where I like it and I’m generally very happy with them. The hand stitched shoulder for example allows me more expression when I work and when I m on my motor bike during the day .. The hand stiched button holes are just really nice to look at and they "go well " with an elegant pair of cufflincs
I also like the fact that they have never asked for a minimum order although the amount of work done on the shirts can not be compared to any of the English shirt makers ..!
Having wrote all the above I wouldn’t necessarily advise anyone to wear shirts from my makers simply because I wouldn't know if they fit their style… their style of being ..! I’ve seen people in England looking quite “strange” to say the least with an Italian styled collar shirt for example ….
So choose according to life style is my proposal ..

Vassilis

[Melcombe]

If I'm interested to see that shirts don't really get the same degree of consideration or discussion that suits do. This is presumably because the latitude for design (before transgressing into the oddball category…) Is somewhat limited.

I have never been so impressed with MTM that I would forsake a decent RTW – the problem these days however is finding decent RTW. And at a decent price of course.

I have lately been moved to exasperation after buying a New and Lingwood shirt whose quality would frankly not come up to the level of a supermarket 'discount special'. I was astonished. Having had their shirts before (although preferring the shape of others) their collapse as a maker of quality is truly shocking.

I would welcome any suggestions as to who you might suggest as the current RTW maker offering the best quality / value. I recently bought an Emma Willis shirt which I think is beautifully made using fantastic materials (which are certainly standing up to some quite heavy use).

I would also give a favourable mention to Ede and Ravenscroft: their (collar attached) shirts compare very well with my Jermyn Street favourite Hilditch and Key. Does anyone have any knowledge as to who makes them for E&R?

Finally, does anyone here have experience of The White Shirt Haberdasher who, selling at £135 a pop, ought to be offering a truly premium product. Surely?

[cathach]

I would also give a favourable mention to Ede and Ravenscroft: their (collar attached) shirts compare very well with my Jermyn Street favourite Hilditch and Key. Does anyone have any knowledge as to who makes them for E&R?

Finally, does anyone here have experience of The White Shirt Haberdasher who, selling at £135 a pop, ought to be offering a truly premium product. Surely?

I don't see why one would shell out that amount for RTW product really, as for such a staple product there are very many options. Also can you clarify the problems you have with the New & Lingwood shirt?

Is there a bit too much focus on where the shirts are sewn? The tailoring trade has always had its own division of labour with outworkers sent cut pieces of fabric to be sewn and finished, a workshop is in most ways a proto-factory. I can see and have experienced advantages and disadvantages to having more than one person work on a garment from start to finish. If its one person they may get distracted or forget, or there's only one pair of eyes looking at the measuring sheet and details. If its more than one there may be a breakdown in communication etc.

The whole situation is further complicated by the way makers and tailors in general are (infamously) competitive and there's a lot of hearsay and rumour over who does what and where.

The collective wisdom on this messaging board and others is that what is most important is being measured and fitted by the individual who drafts your pattern and cuts your cloth. Where the sewers are should be secondary to the quality and consistency demanded by the cutter in charge of the show.

Here's a list of firms from the thread that have (or claim to have) their own manufacturing capability in the UK:
http://www.barnettmanufacturing.co.uk/
http://www.benjaminvaughan.com/
http://www.buddshirts.co.uk/
http://www.emmawillis.com/
http://www.frankrostron.com/
https://www.greenandjacks.com/
http://www.grosvenorshirts.com/
http://www.hilditchandkey.co.uk/
http://www.jonathanquearney.com/
http://raynerandsturges.com/
http://www.russellandhodge.com/
http://www.shirtsbyweisters.co.uk/
http://www.smythandgibson.com/
http://www.turnbullandasser.com/

Now as consumers we don't/can't know where the shirts are made, indeed I would not be surprised if the larger cutters had arrangements with different workshops to take up slack as demand varies. Our aim is to get the level of make and fitting that we expect considering the trouble and expense we have gone to. From the comments here we can see wildly varying reports from the same maker even though the shirt was sewn downstairs!

Would members care to share more experiences both good and bad and any further information they have on makers?