my trip to NYC
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Guest
Cleverly RTW only 300 pounds? I thought Kempson's staff quoted me a price closer to $1000. Can someone verify this?
Big guy, Cleverly RTW range in the upper GBP 200 to the mid GBP300. They are roughly in the same pricing range as C&J. Kempson adds his own markup, plus shipping costs, plus any duties he has to pay.
Jay Kos shirts were made by Haines & Bonner in the late 90's before they became a subpar shirtmaker.They are no longer made by H&B and have not been for years.rjman wrote:Jay Kos has an excellent selection of interesting items but as another poster suggested, the quality makes the brand. I am not sure why his shirts, for instance, are $450 off the rack. If he could explain why in terms of the quality of cloth, the amount of handwork, the construction and the attention to detail, I would listen. One ebay reseller states that the Jay Kos shirts are made by Haines & Bonner, which is an also-ran to Thomas Pink making shirts in Turkey -- so, if true, that would not justify the price.
RJ
I have a few Jay Kos H&B shirts purchased in '96 or '97 that are pretty well made and use very unique fabrics.
Jay was a very friendly guy when I first started shopping there, always spending time to talk to me about anything and everything clothing related. After ~1/2 a dozen visits I was barely acknowledged once he realized that all I bought was "small" items (i.e. shirts, ties, pocket squares) and did not bite on his sales pitches on the big ticket merchandise.
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richardcharles
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The best descrption I heard of Jay is that he is very tightly wound. He has commented to me thatt Europeans aren't concerned by who made this and how much handwork is in that ( Not true ). His shirts are made by at least two companies. The italian make is made by the original owner of what is now Brioni's shirt, Burini. The company name is StefanoB and it is a well made shirt. Not the handwork you might find in Naples or in custom but a well made shirt. The second is a swiss company whose name escapes me.
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Guest
That was it Richard, exactly. NYC prices are shocking if you do not know the current prices at all the top places, so I am not sure why Kos' prices are noteworthy, especially considering his location. But he is scary (for a salesman, at least when worked up, which was how he was with me). While our more combative and narcissistic Lounge members might enjoy a tussle with him, I would just melt away....
I am not sure whom you have in mind with your reference to "combative and narcissistic Lounge members." Care to name names?
Personally, I do not find Kos or his shop enjoyable. When he was just starting out, and only had the Lexington Ave. shop, he was a nice guy and the shop was a fun place. But that was a long time ago. For the last several years, he has been much different.
My personal impression, from several visits, is that Jay does not like knowledgable customers who know the price of things and can spot quality. He especially does not like careful shoppers who spend a little at a time, and are on the hunt for good pieces but rarely buy in bulk. Those kinds of people are more trouble than they are worth, in his mind. He likes rich guys, maybe shopping with ambitious women, who don't really know much and can be cajoled (or bullied) into dropping five figures in a single sale.
I have heard a few stories of guys going in there wearing suits from the best bespoke tailors in New York, shirts from the best makers, bespoke shoes from London, etc., and having their clothes insulted by Jay personally. He just strode up and said "That looks awful" or something. I sort of even experienced this myself once, though to a less flagrant degree. He told me that my suit did not fit. I asked him to be specific. He just started to blather about "balance" and other nonsense (the coat is, by the way, perfectly balanced) that did not add up. I later told this story to the tailor who made the suit I was wearing at the time, and he had a good laugh about it. Jay has a problem with admitting, even to himself, that anything that did not come from his store can look good. Which is fine -- a merchant should have confidence in his product. But it goes too far to launch unrprovoked attacks on customers' (or potential customers') clothes, especially if said attacks are factually incorrect. I think the pressure of maintaining two stores in the cut-throat high-end East Side retail market has taken its toll.
Sometimes I wonder if his surliness is calculated to scare guys like us away. He thinks we waste his time. In my experience, the best dressed guys are not the ones who spend the most money, though of course they do spend money. Jay is really only interested in the people who spend the big money, not in helping those who dress well but spend less. That may be unfair, and if anyone wants to defend Jay, I am willing to listen, but that has been my impression based on experience.
Personally, I do not find Kos or his shop enjoyable. When he was just starting out, and only had the Lexington Ave. shop, he was a nice guy and the shop was a fun place. But that was a long time ago. For the last several years, he has been much different.
My personal impression, from several visits, is that Jay does not like knowledgable customers who know the price of things and can spot quality. He especially does not like careful shoppers who spend a little at a time, and are on the hunt for good pieces but rarely buy in bulk. Those kinds of people are more trouble than they are worth, in his mind. He likes rich guys, maybe shopping with ambitious women, who don't really know much and can be cajoled (or bullied) into dropping five figures in a single sale.
I have heard a few stories of guys going in there wearing suits from the best bespoke tailors in New York, shirts from the best makers, bespoke shoes from London, etc., and having their clothes insulted by Jay personally. He just strode up and said "That looks awful" or something. I sort of even experienced this myself once, though to a less flagrant degree. He told me that my suit did not fit. I asked him to be specific. He just started to blather about "balance" and other nonsense (the coat is, by the way, perfectly balanced) that did not add up. I later told this story to the tailor who made the suit I was wearing at the time, and he had a good laugh about it. Jay has a problem with admitting, even to himself, that anything that did not come from his store can look good. Which is fine -- a merchant should have confidence in his product. But it goes too far to launch unrprovoked attacks on customers' (or potential customers') clothes, especially if said attacks are factually incorrect. I think the pressure of maintaining two stores in the cut-throat high-end East Side retail market has taken its toll.
Sometimes I wonder if his surliness is calculated to scare guys like us away. He thinks we waste his time. In my experience, the best dressed guys are not the ones who spend the most money, though of course they do spend money. Jay is really only interested in the people who spend the big money, not in helping those who dress well but spend less. That may be unfair, and if anyone wants to defend Jay, I am willing to listen, but that has been my impression based on experience.
Last edited by manton on Sat Oct 08, 2005 5:29 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Guest
My transgression was wearing a white shirt: he made a remark. I wasn't bothered by it, but that is interesting.
Kos aside, and the ignorant department store folks apart, NYC customers have embaras de richesse so far as bespoke clothes and beautiful shoes are concerned. I did not catch any 'tude this trip. I am lucky to have Centofanti, but the top NYC tailors are not THAT much more considering the rent. My Centofanti suit (the only suit he made me) was $2600. I take it that most are in the $3500-4000 range. You could shave down the difference by sticking with odd jackets and finding an inexpensive tailor to make pants (since all tailors farm out pants either to a specialist or a dedicated person in their attelier, like Centofanti). And we can't even get good shoes here in Philadelphia, so I would end up getting my EG's or Vasses just like you NYC guys (eg by begging for them on street corners).
Nicolosi, Corvato, Logsdale, Shattuck, Davies and Davies (next week), Oxxford, Fiorivanti, Raphael, in no particular order. That is a lot of top tailors in one city. We have only Centofanti and Partito. Did I miss any (I am talking about those with unimpeachable reputations)? Nice if someone would make a list with contact information and realistic price for a suit.
A separate list should be for the address, prices, and contact info for Latanzi, Berluti, Lobb, Cleverly chez Kempson and Crockett chez Turnbull.
Kos aside, and the ignorant department store folks apart, NYC customers have embaras de richesse so far as bespoke clothes and beautiful shoes are concerned. I did not catch any 'tude this trip. I am lucky to have Centofanti, but the top NYC tailors are not THAT much more considering the rent. My Centofanti suit (the only suit he made me) was $2600. I take it that most are in the $3500-4000 range. You could shave down the difference by sticking with odd jackets and finding an inexpensive tailor to make pants (since all tailors farm out pants either to a specialist or a dedicated person in their attelier, like Centofanti). And we can't even get good shoes here in Philadelphia, so I would end up getting my EG's or Vasses just like you NYC guys (eg by begging for them on street corners).
Nicolosi, Corvato, Logsdale, Shattuck, Davies and Davies (next week), Oxxford, Fiorivanti, Raphael, in no particular order. That is a lot of top tailors in one city. We have only Centofanti and Partito. Did I miss any (I am talking about those with unimpeachable reputations)? Nice if someone would make a list with contact information and realistic price for a suit.
A separate list should be for the address, prices, and contact info for Latanzi, Berluti, Lobb, Cleverly chez Kempson and Crockett chez Turnbull.
NYC tailors have to be categorized according to how they work. At the very top are those who do true bench work. I would put in this category Raphael, Shattuck, Ragusa, Logsdail, Nicolosi, Cheo and Gagliano. Corvato probably belongs in that catagory too, from what I have seen, though others have told me they disagree. Sanitate is hard to figure out because of their mystifying price structure and work level, which they don't seem too keen to explain. Maurizio and Fioravanti are special cases: they operate their businesses more like Savile Row houses, and neither is a true tailor (though they can draft patterns and cut). Maurizio, I am told, does not farm anything out. Fioravanti does. Not for long-time clients, I am told, but for newbies and nobodies, outsourcing even the coat is a genuine possibility.
Even with these guys, the level of work varies. For instance, Ragusa uses a pre-made canvas, although he hand-pads the lapels and makes the rest of the coat himself. Nicolosi and Shattuck do pretty much everything but the trousers with their own hands. Raphael has coat makers do about two-thirds of the coat, but he insists on sewing the collars and shoulders and setting the sleeves himself. Corvato has more employees and more of a "division of labor."
You can't get a suit out of any of these guys for less than $3,000, and that will only be for cloth they have on hand. The average starting price will be around $3,500 to $4,000. Some charge significantly more.
There are also a half-dozen or so bespoke "designers" who charge even more. Then there are the CMT handwork factories, some of which will take private clients. They will charge less than $2,000 on average. Then there are the various lower priced tailors (e.g, L&S, Mr. Ned) who charge even less.
Even with these guys, the level of work varies. For instance, Ragusa uses a pre-made canvas, although he hand-pads the lapels and makes the rest of the coat himself. Nicolosi and Shattuck do pretty much everything but the trousers with their own hands. Raphael has coat makers do about two-thirds of the coat, but he insists on sewing the collars and shoulders and setting the sleeves himself. Corvato has more employees and more of a "division of labor."
You can't get a suit out of any of these guys for less than $3,000, and that will only be for cloth they have on hand. The average starting price will be around $3,500 to $4,000. Some charge significantly more.
There are also a half-dozen or so bespoke "designers" who charge even more. Then there are the CMT handwork factories, some of which will take private clients. They will charge less than $2,000 on average. Then there are the various lower priced tailors (e.g, L&S, Mr. Ned) who charge even less.
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Guest
My intention was to propose a list of the top-level tailors of unimpeachable quality.
That said, the only points of disjuncture are Ragusa, Maurizio, Fioravanti, Gagliano, and Cheo. There appears to be no disagreement on Nicolosi, Corvato, Logsdale, Shattuck, Davies, Oxxford, and Raphael.
Add Cheo, Gagliano, and Ragusa to the list (anything I write is by report, so do not question my personal experience). My vibe from publicity and posts here and elsewhere from Sanitate is bad, so leave them out. Anyone with that many levels of quality might be okay but they cannot be in the top rank, where your attention should be directed to fabric and model, not quality. That was an important ingredient in my success with Centofanti. To pick quality is just too complicated with all the other things one has to select when picking a bespoke garment.
That leaves Maurizio and Fioravanti. I take these because your remarks raise an interesting point. I am not sure what the significance of "farming out" is for tailors. Centofanti does not farm out because he runs an attelier and has full-time employees including a trouser-maker. This is the traditional model in Italy. The top tailors in Naples for instance use my trouser maker, who has his own workshop, but whether a trouser maker is in the tailor's attelier or in his own shop does not seem to matter to me. Likewise, "farming out" sewing to workers in various locations is a consecrated Savile Row model and probably explains the longevity of the Row past the time that bespoke tailoring might have been viable there. Bespoke shoemaking (from what I understand) in England almost entirely follows this cottage industry model because of the decline in the business.
According to Centofanti, Fioravanti is the best tailor in the USA. If he drafts patterns and cuts in any event, why isn't he a true tailor? What is left?
The do-it yourself model is followed by only a fraction of tailors out there (like Partito, who shares with his wife), and while there is nothing wrong with this, I am not sure why it is superior, and it is certainly less efficient.
Also interesting is your remark about the "designers'" being more expensive. This is probably true, and another reason to steer away from them, but I wonder why it is true.
That said, the only points of disjuncture are Ragusa, Maurizio, Fioravanti, Gagliano, and Cheo. There appears to be no disagreement on Nicolosi, Corvato, Logsdale, Shattuck, Davies, Oxxford, and Raphael.
Add Cheo, Gagliano, and Ragusa to the list (anything I write is by report, so do not question my personal experience). My vibe from publicity and posts here and elsewhere from Sanitate is bad, so leave them out. Anyone with that many levels of quality might be okay but they cannot be in the top rank, where your attention should be directed to fabric and model, not quality. That was an important ingredient in my success with Centofanti. To pick quality is just too complicated with all the other things one has to select when picking a bespoke garment.
That leaves Maurizio and Fioravanti. I take these because your remarks raise an interesting point. I am not sure what the significance of "farming out" is for tailors. Centofanti does not farm out because he runs an attelier and has full-time employees including a trouser-maker. This is the traditional model in Italy. The top tailors in Naples for instance use my trouser maker, who has his own workshop, but whether a trouser maker is in the tailor's attelier or in his own shop does not seem to matter to me. Likewise, "farming out" sewing to workers in various locations is a consecrated Savile Row model and probably explains the longevity of the Row past the time that bespoke tailoring might have been viable there. Bespoke shoemaking (from what I understand) in England almost entirely follows this cottage industry model because of the decline in the business.
According to Centofanti, Fioravanti is the best tailor in the USA. If he drafts patterns and cuts in any event, why isn't he a true tailor? What is left?
The do-it yourself model is followed by only a fraction of tailors out there (like Partito, who shares with his wife), and while there is nothing wrong with this, I am not sure why it is superior, and it is certainly less efficient.
Also interesting is your remark about the "designers'" being more expensive. This is probably true, and another reason to steer away from them, but I wonder why it is true.
Last edited by Guest on Sun Oct 09, 2005 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Then I think the list would have to be limited to maybe a half-dozen perhaps fewer. It would be hard to come up with a list that everyone agreed on. Plus, different tailors have different strengths. Nobody sews and finishes as well as Nicolosi. Raphael makes a great pattern. Frank is a meticulous fitter. Etc.brescd01 wrote:My intention was to propose a list of the top-level tailors of unimpeachable quality.
Oxxford belongs in a different catagory. Their top suit is MTM, not bespoke, and it is not bench but made in a handwork factory. That's not meant as a criticism; just to note that you are getting something different. Davies too belongs in a different category. (BTW, it is just "Davies" as in "Davies & Sons." They also own the name James & James which will be put on the label of the suits they sell through the Venanzi store.) It is bespoke, but overseas cut and made, much like the suits sold by travelling Savile Row tailors. In fact, I would say that it is the same business model, excpet that instead of using hotels twice or thrice a year, they now have standing retail space. Either way, that business model is a bit different than being measured by the guy who cuts your suit, in the same shop where he cuts and makes your suit, and where you will also be subsequently fitted. There is something to be said for using local artisans wherever possible.That said, the only points of disjuncture are Ragusa, Maurizio, Fioravanti, Gagliano, and Cheo. There appears to be no disagreement on Nicolosi, Corvato, Logsdale, Shattuck, Davies and Davies, Oxxford, Raphael, and Shattuck.
The business in New York is a bit different than in London. In London, the use of coatmakers is common. The Savile Row houses are established business whose names have a history behind them. In most cases, the real person or people behind those names is long gone. The firms are therefore sort of like white shoe law firms.I am not sure what the significance of "farming out" is for tailors.
That is not true in New York. All the top tailors have their name on the door. They are also the head (and often the only) cutter. So when you go to (say) Logsdail, you are paying in part to have Len himself cut your suit. When you go to Anderson & Sheppard, on the other hand, there is no more Pete Sheppard to cut your suit, but you are paying for A&S's institutional knowledge and style. Neither is good or bad, necessarily, but different. Given the difference, I would steer clear of New York tailors who farm out their coats, if only because there are plenty of tailors who don't.
Farming out the trousers is something everyone in NY and London do. Farming out vests is also common, though Shattuck and Nicolosi each make the vests themselves, for what that is worth.
Sewing. Fioravanti can't sew.According to Centofanti, Fioravanti is the best tailor in the USA. If he drafts patterns and cuts in any event, why isn't he a true tailor? What is left?
Not necessarily superior, I agree. Though at its best, a garment made by a single pair of hands can be superior and more "individualized." If the tailor is really excellent, he will pay more attention to the details and the final product will be better. But of course a suit made by several people in a top bench atelier will be superior to one made by a single mediocre tailor. Also (and this may just be a coincidence) but the best sewing that I have seen has been on coats made by a single cutter/tailor/fitter. That is true of coats from New York, London and Italy.The do-it yourself model is followed by only a fraction of tailors out there (like Partito, who shares with his wife), and while there is nothing wrong with this, I am not sure why it is superior, and it is certainly less efficient.
Because they have to pay the tailor and/or factory and still make a profit. So they add an additional mark-up. Plus they tend to be in serious high rent areas and have higher overhead. The kind of customer who goes to Bruce Cameron Clarke or Liana Lee probably likes to shop in ground floor space with nice wood panelling, and is less interested in taking a ride in a manually operated elevator to the 6th floor of 510 Madison, to a room with blank white walls and cloth cuttings and loose threads all over the floor.Also interesting is your remark about the "designers'" being more expensive. This is probably true, and another reason to steer away from them, but I wonder why it is true.
Last edited by manton on Sun Oct 09, 2005 1:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Then your list would be Ragusa, Maurizio, Gagliano, Cheo, Nicolosi, Corvato, Logsdale, Shattuck, Davies, Raphael, and Shattuck? I am not trying to be controversial or opinionated, just reach a consensus. I thought Oxxford began bespoke in its NYC location? I added Davies, though your analyzing it for its business model raises a good point, that it is a model that is un-tested, since not quite identical to the travelling tailor- one that has been used for decades.
Could we firm up the prices please? One of the reasons I do not even consider trying any of these tailors is that I would have to call first and ask prices, and the prices I am quoted never seem to match the reality. I don't mind paying for quality, but I have to say I am unusually frightened by surprises. I for one would find such a list of practical value.
Could we firm up the prices please? One of the reasons I do not even consider trying any of these tailors is that I would have to call first and ask prices, and the prices I am quoted never seem to match the reality. I don't mind paying for quality, but I have to say I am unusually frightened by surprises. I for one would find such a list of practical value.
Are there one-man shops [i.e., no freelancers used] working at the highest levels in London? Or do you include those in your survey to prove your point about the boutique Italian and New York tailors?manton wrote:Also (and this may just be a coincidence) but the best sewing that I have seen has been on coats made by a single cutter/tailor/fitter. That is true of coats from New York, London and Italy.
Last edited by Concordia on Sat Oct 08, 2005 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I am trying to weasal out of making my own list, partly because I haven't used them all, partly because judging is so subjective, partly because I don't want to offend anyone (tailor or client).
Here is what I know about pricing:
Shattuck: $4,600 for a two-piece, $800 for a vest. That is EXCLUSIVE of cloth. In other words, you bring your own, or you order it through him. If you order through him, you will only pay his cost (i.e., the wholesale cost).
Nicolosi: For cloth he has in the shop, $3,000 for a two piece. His quote for a vest is $1,500. Apparently, he sets the price high because he makes the vest himself, and he does not like to do so, so the price is meant to be a discouragement. Ordering out of the books starts at $3,500 for a two piece.
Raphael: $2795 for a two-piece if you bring your own cloth; $495 for a vest or a pair of trousers. Ordering out of the books costs more. How much more varies widely by the book.
Logsdail: Full bespoke starts at $4,300. MTM (cut by Len but made in a factory) is in the low to mid $2,000s, I'm not sure about the exact figure.
Fioravanti: Two-piece starts at $5,995.
Maurizio: I don't know, but it's high. At least $5,000.
Cheo: $4,000 or so.
Ragusa: I think he is low by comparison, around $2,600 for a two-piece.
Coravato starts at $3,500 for a two-piece.
Here is what I know about pricing:
Shattuck: $4,600 for a two-piece, $800 for a vest. That is EXCLUSIVE of cloth. In other words, you bring your own, or you order it through him. If you order through him, you will only pay his cost (i.e., the wholesale cost).
Nicolosi: For cloth he has in the shop, $3,000 for a two piece. His quote for a vest is $1,500. Apparently, he sets the price high because he makes the vest himself, and he does not like to do so, so the price is meant to be a discouragement. Ordering out of the books starts at $3,500 for a two piece.
Raphael: $2795 for a two-piece if you bring your own cloth; $495 for a vest or a pair of trousers. Ordering out of the books costs more. How much more varies widely by the book.
Logsdail: Full bespoke starts at $4,300. MTM (cut by Len but made in a factory) is in the low to mid $2,000s, I'm not sure about the exact figure.
Fioravanti: Two-piece starts at $5,995.
Maurizio: I don't know, but it's high. At least $5,000.
Cheo: $4,000 or so.
Ragusa: I think he is low by comparison, around $2,600 for a two-piece.
Coravato starts at $3,500 for a two-piece.
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