Johnstons of Elgin
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Macallan1926
- Posts: 246
- Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:48 pm
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^ So lets make the LL Camel a reality
99% of you gents on the LL have no idea what good cloth is. You know only what you read... and you know it
only in your heads. Not in your hand like customers of old. It is the times we live in. Will you appreciate what he will do with this camel hair if he so decides ? It is quite an undertaking. FS
only in your heads. Not in your hand like customers of old. It is the times we live in. Will you appreciate what he will do with this camel hair if he so decides ? It is quite an undertaking. FS
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Macallan1926
- Posts: 246
- Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:48 pm
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^ teach don't preach
point taken. thank you
Frank, I believe that most of us know very well what a good cloth is. Did you mean instead that we wouldn't recognize it if we saw it or touched it?old henry wrote:99% of you gents on the LL have no idea what good cloth is.
For me a "good" cloth is a functional qualification and depends on what I want. Am I looking for drape, for warmth, for durability, for appearance, for affordability, for a combination of all of the above? A "good" cloth is the one that satisfies my criteria (great for hand tailoring has not been explicitly on my list, sorry).
Do I know how to find the good cloth and would I recognize it once in my hands? Well, I want to believe that but I confess that for this I need some help from trusted experts or those with more experience.
Hectorm, perhaps that would be a "convenient" cloth. I think when Frank writes of "good" cloth, it's the same as when he writes that such or such are "good" people. I like his absolutes, it is a refreshing change from our relativistic approach by criteria and conveniences, as in "what is good for me" or "it depends on the point of view". A "good" cloth is one your fingers fall in love with - and you don't decide to fall in love after carefully weighing and judging pros and cons...hectorm wrote:For me a "good" cloth is a functional qualification and depends on what I want. Am I looking for drape, for warmth, for durability, for appearance, for affordability, for a combination of all of the above? A "good" cloth is the one that satisfies my criteriaold henry wrote:99% of you gents on the LL have no idea what good cloth is.
Oh, you don't think one can fall in love with a piece of cloth? - let's ask Frank... 
I would have dared to put that first on the list. If the cloth is good for my tailor, it is most probably good for me, too.hectorm wrote:(great for hand tailoring has not been explicitly on my list, sorry).
But I tend to agree with Frank that what many of us lack is the actual hands-on experience of really good cloth. The success of the Cloth Club and the reactions of members and tailors alike prove that we don't even know what to expect, until we lay our hands on the stuff.
So...?old henry wrote:point taken. thank you
Years ago I had the amazing good fortune to take private cooking lessons from a young man who later became a well known Parisian chef cited by many, including journalists at Le Figaro, as a precocious culinary master.
The first few lessons were spent outside of a kitchen. “What is the point of me teaching you how to cook”, said the young man, “if you do not know how to select the best products to cook?” So we went to the very best outdoor market in town and he started to teach me how to select every type of fish, poultry, meat, vegetables, cheese etc. I learned how to palpitate a sea bass and understand its provenance from the firmness of the flesh. I gazed into the poor beasts’ eyes, looking for the clarity that indicates freshness. I opened up the gills and checked to find a nice rosy pink color. “It’s the skill 99% of amateur cooks don’t master. And they only superficially understand why it is important. They don’t even know what they are cooking or eating. No wonder a dish turns out wrong. Why would someone invest hours of time and money to cook inferior products when they can have great ones for the same price as long as they know how to see it?”
A few years later I was visiting an old tailor in Naples, one of the legends of the city. I had a few lengths and cuttings of tweed with me that I showed him. He took each one up in his hands, played around with it a bit, and to my dismay he grimaced as he discarded most of the cloth keeping only one in his hands with a smile. “Now this is cloth fit for me to work with and for you to wear. We can make something with this cloth!” But Maestro, I interrupted, these are all high quality tweeds and some even come from the same mill. What is the difference?” And so he set about to show me what made good cloth with his hands rubbing it (as I have taught you to do here) and then with the needle and iron. He wanted to work a good deal of ease into the shoulder of a coat and he wanted cloth that “talked back to him” under the duress he was submitting it to. “Now you understand,” he said “why you should be careful what you bring in here to me..OK?”
Now there are among you who believe that one can learn nothing from cloth, that they are all the same, and better than they ever have been in history etc. That is denial, a kind of happy oblivion. A great chef knows how to choose great products for his pan and will become furious with anything less. And a great tailor like Old Henry knows how to choose cloth for his hand, any becomes furious with anything less. Let’s take a minute and learn from them. Oh and my cooking skill improved exponentially in a few years thanks to my teacher and to this day it is one of my favorite pastimes, much to the dismay of my tailor.
I know…”another story from Alden..ho hum.”
Keep it coming Frank.
Cheers
PS Last week I was visiting one of my favorite cheese shops near Covent Garden, to load up on Stilton, and while chatting with the owner into the shop walked Alain Ducasse. "This is one of my favorite shops", he announced to the owner "whenever I come to London, I come here." Well we set about to taste a slew of English blues and I watched the same gestures and techniques from the great culinary impresario that I had learned years ago from my teacher. Technique does have a place in art after all. I was however especially amused to hear Ducasse bemoan the state of food products and how it was becoming impossible to find the three star products to make three star dishes for a three star restaurant. His plaint had a very familiar ring to it.
OK no more stories for a week. I promise..
The first few lessons were spent outside of a kitchen. “What is the point of me teaching you how to cook”, said the young man, “if you do not know how to select the best products to cook?” So we went to the very best outdoor market in town and he started to teach me how to select every type of fish, poultry, meat, vegetables, cheese etc. I learned how to palpitate a sea bass and understand its provenance from the firmness of the flesh. I gazed into the poor beasts’ eyes, looking for the clarity that indicates freshness. I opened up the gills and checked to find a nice rosy pink color. “It’s the skill 99% of amateur cooks don’t master. And they only superficially understand why it is important. They don’t even know what they are cooking or eating. No wonder a dish turns out wrong. Why would someone invest hours of time and money to cook inferior products when they can have great ones for the same price as long as they know how to see it?”
A few years later I was visiting an old tailor in Naples, one of the legends of the city. I had a few lengths and cuttings of tweed with me that I showed him. He took each one up in his hands, played around with it a bit, and to my dismay he grimaced as he discarded most of the cloth keeping only one in his hands with a smile. “Now this is cloth fit for me to work with and for you to wear. We can make something with this cloth!” But Maestro, I interrupted, these are all high quality tweeds and some even come from the same mill. What is the difference?” And so he set about to show me what made good cloth with his hands rubbing it (as I have taught you to do here) and then with the needle and iron. He wanted to work a good deal of ease into the shoulder of a coat and he wanted cloth that “talked back to him” under the duress he was submitting it to. “Now you understand,” he said “why you should be careful what you bring in here to me..OK?”
Now there are among you who believe that one can learn nothing from cloth, that they are all the same, and better than they ever have been in history etc. That is denial, a kind of happy oblivion. A great chef knows how to choose great products for his pan and will become furious with anything less. And a great tailor like Old Henry knows how to choose cloth for his hand, any becomes furious with anything less. Let’s take a minute and learn from them. Oh and my cooking skill improved exponentially in a few years thanks to my teacher and to this day it is one of my favorite pastimes, much to the dismay of my tailor.
I know…”another story from Alden..ho hum.”
Keep it coming Frank.
Cheers
PS Last week I was visiting one of my favorite cheese shops near Covent Garden, to load up on Stilton, and while chatting with the owner into the shop walked Alain Ducasse. "This is one of my favorite shops", he announced to the owner "whenever I come to London, I come here." Well we set about to taste a slew of English blues and I watched the same gestures and techniques from the great culinary impresario that I had learned years ago from my teacher. Technique does have a place in art after all. I was however especially amused to hear Ducasse bemoan the state of food products and how it was becoming impossible to find the three star products to make three star dishes for a three star restaurant. His plaint had a very familiar ring to it.
OK no more stories for a week. I promise..
and cloth these days is going very rapidly very very rapidly down hill. nothing is what it was.
do people know this fact ?
do people know this fact ?
That's a promise I hope you will not keep!OK no more stories for a week. I promise..
Michael,
Lovely stories and thank you for sharing. Have you described the process of discovering high-quality fabrics and what to look for in a past thread? If so and you recall which one I would love to read it. I think I have a decent handle on it, but would be happy to have more pointers.
Working in the fine wine industry I completely agree that "they don't make 'em like they used to." Many of my absolute favorite producers are retired from Burgundy and the Rhone and their predecessors cannot make wine in their rustic yet transparent style. It's all about who actually touches the wine just like with food, fabrics and many other things in life.
PS - I envy those cooking lessons! I am an amateur chef as well and my most recent indulgence was a handful of new copper pans. Looking forward to using them for decades to come!
Lovely stories and thank you for sharing. Have you described the process of discovering high-quality fabrics and what to look for in a past thread? If so and you recall which one I would love to read it. I think I have a decent handle on it, but would be happy to have more pointers.
Working in the fine wine industry I completely agree that "they don't make 'em like they used to." Many of my absolute favorite producers are retired from Burgundy and the Rhone and their predecessors cannot make wine in their rustic yet transparent style. It's all about who actually touches the wine just like with food, fabrics and many other things in life.
PS - I envy those cooking lessons! I am an amateur chef as well and my most recent indulgence was a handful of new copper pans. Looking forward to using them for decades to come!
Promettre c'est noble, tenir c'est bourgeois...alden wrote: OK no more stories for a week. I promise..
alden wrote: OK no more stories for a week. I promise..
no Michael, you can't do this! cheers, david
you guys are funny
Dear Slewfoot,Slewfoot wrote: my most recent indulgence was a handful of new copper pans. Looking forward to using them for decades to come!
is your wife cleaning them?
They are great for cooking, but what a pain!
cheers, david
The ones we have - Falk Culinair with cast iron handles - are much too heavy for my wife too clean! I generally deal with them even though she is technically a better cook than I. I'm already loving the patina that is developing from the heat, food and washing.davidhuh wrote:Dear Slewfoot,Slewfoot wrote: my most recent indulgence was a handful of new copper pans. Looking forward to using them for decades to come!
is your wife cleaning them?
They are great for cooking, but what a pain!
cheers, david
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