Can bespoke enter the computer age.

[Renfield]

Several of you posters should change your user names to Jeremiah.

The reason there was a decline in hand tailoring was because there was a decline in men and women who ordered it, not because there was a shortage of tailors.

A friend informs me that SR is booming at the moment and that hand tailoring is back in vogue amongst a younger more discerning client who have tired of the 'designer' look that offers little or no scope for the individual.

This is reflected in that several SR tailors have taken on young apprentices as can be seen from the A&S blog. Ramroop is running a school and we have also seen the rise of online MTM buisness. This all points to a renewed interest in tailoring at all levels.

Where there is demand....

...and here lies the crux, all of you posters who are lamenting the [alleged] passing of hand tailoring can help by ordering more, rather than shedding crocodile tears on a clothing forum.

Gentlemen, your wallets...

[Leonard Logsdail]

I believe a bigger reason for the decline of bespoke tailoring apprenticeships is length of time, measured in years and not months, it takes to become proficient , and i mean truly proficient, at your job. Which in turn means years before a half decent salary can be earned. Far easier to go into some internet business where age, experience, patience and good fingers are not a pre-requisite of earning money faster.

A young guy approached me late last year about making a jacket for me. i told him he was too young but, remembering how I needed someone to trust my ability when I was his age, I gave him a jacket for myself to make. He was upset that I would not entrust him with a clients jacket! Anyway, I cut the coat and he made it for me. I paid him full price, but have not even bothered to put the button holes in yet. He needs at least another 5 years on the board before he should attempt to make coats for clients, and yet that would be too long for him to wait in order to earn decent money! I understand this, yet this young man has chosen this profession because he loves it. Tailoring firms cannot carry apprentices for long without needing to earn form their labors. So now we are back to money and orders. You out there who love bespoke clothes need to triple or quadruple your yearly orders with your tailors. the tailors would love it, the apprentices would love it, you would all look super-good and be sure of younger men being there when we old ones hang up our cutting shears.

Simple.

[Merc]

It's an interesting idea and may have real merit. To many though, it may be like that moment you order an expensive bottle of wine at a nice restaurant and the Sommelier returns only to twist off the top. Some of the best wine makers in the world make a strong case for using twist-off for the sake of consistent quality, but it sure deminishes the wine experience for me.

i disagree ---i have had way too many corked bottles of wine generally and riesling in particular over the years, with some of the most famous names in alsace among the worst ive experienced--which is why im very grateful for the majority of austrian producers using sealed screwcaps-- wine will not age in the same manner but on any wine less than five years old they work great and i never worry about the cork infection...are there more elegant answers--sure theres a glass "cork" which works well too--same resutl as a screwtop--(although i hate silicone corks)

[Merc]

I believe a bigger reason for the decline of bespoke tailoring apprenticeships is length of time, measured in years and not months, it takes to become proficient , and i mean truly proficient, at your job. Which in turn means years before a half decent salary can be earned. Far easier to go into some internet business where age, experience, patience and good fingers are not a pre-requisite of earning money faster.
Simple.

this is a very good point...........and applies not just to trades with a craftsman or artistic bent..but applies even to a number of more mundane businesses

[dempsy444]

i disagree ---i have had way too many corked bottles of wine generally and riesling in particular over the years, with some of the most famous names in alsace among the worst ive experienced--which is why im very grateful for the majority of austrian producers using sealed screwcaps-- wine will not age in the same manner but on any wine less than five years old they work great and i never worry about the cork infection...are there more elegant answers--sure theres a glass "cork" which works well too--same resutl as a screwtop--(although i hate silicone corks)

That is all true. I was commenting more on the art of opening the bottle at the table.

[dempsy444]

Several of you posters should change your user names to Jeremiah.

The reason there was a decline in hand tailoring was because there was a decline in men and women who ordered it, not because there was a shortage of tailors.

A friend informs me that SR is booming at the moment and that hand tailoring is back in vogue amongst a younger more discerning client who have tired of the 'designer' look that offers little or no scope for the individual.

This is reflected in that several SR tailors have taken on young apprentices as can be seen from the A&S blog. Ramroop is running a school and we have also seen the rise of online MTM buisness. This all points to a renewed interest in tailoring at all levels.

As for the cause, I think it is never an issue of just demand or supply but rather a combination of the two.

Where there is demand....

...and here lies the crux, all of you posters who are lamenting the [alleged] passing of hand tailoring can help by ordering more, rather than shedding crocodile tears on a clothing forum.

Gentlemen, your wallets...

But I think SR is benefitting from a situation of scarcity. I suspect much of that demand on SR is coming from abroad. A new class of wealthy Russians and Chinese, and Americans with high cash flow. SR has a reputation for a high standard, and maybe people commission from it because they can't find similar quality at home like maybe their father could. it's also a prestige good. And we all know there is a growing global population of people who will pay any price for prestige. This could all very well mask the general decline that Mr. Shattuck cites.

Often what will happen in a declining industry is a situation where many suppliers suffer, so exit, but a few who remain thrive. This is because there are a fewer and fewer suppliers who meet the standard of a smaller but loyal customer base, and this enables them to charge higher prices. You get scarcity pricing. Scarcity pricing is great in the short run but terrible for an industry in the long run You will get suppliers charging a 50% premium to what they could get before mainly because they are benefitting from scarcity pricing. In the short run, this is good. It funds their expansion. In the long run though, it causes customers to order less, scares new customers off, thus leading to the downward spiral that Mr. Logsdail states.

[andreyb]

Sometimes I suspect (though not really know for sure) that there was a "black hole" in terms of apprentices on SR, that just (hopefully!) ended -- thanks to collaboration of SR big houses with Newham College and SR Academy.

Andrey

[old henry]

andreyb and dempsey, There is no way that you could or should know, but tailoring is not a job where you say "here is how you do it, now go ,sit in that chair and do it". Tailoring is absorbed into the hands not learned with the brain. Absorbed in its own time. It takes years for the hand to understand the craft. A tailor can have a detailed conversation with a customer while doing the most intricate work because his hands hold the knowledge.His hands have learned. The years it takes to set a sleeve. To lay tape. So many years to make and understand the assembling of a canvas. How to stitch the hem and vent so that they cup the form. How much fullness and ease to put in the back shoulder seam for each individual customers back. How to hold and manipulate the cloth and canvas while pad stitching the lapel so they roll together, just so, forever. How to baste an under collar. How to apply a top collar, how to draft or adapt a block pattern, how to assess a customers structure. The years it takes to learn how to make the iron and your intentions work as one. Often when I am working on a coat , a certain opperation brings me right back to the time and place and the old man who showed me. He is there. And the old men that taught him are in my hands. Such a gift to give. My old Mr. Cesta used to say "Tailoring is not one plus one is two". It is 10 hrs a day 7 days a week in the shop because the apprentice loves his dream of tailoring and and wants to be the best. The craft seeps in. This young apprentice would have old tailors seeing to it that he does it right because his learning is their life and strict duty. Young apprentices thought of nothing else for years, They dreamed about it. This incubation atmosphere of charm no longer exists. This honor of craft is obsolete in this day.

[mmkn2]

Sadly, the folks who can really appreciate what goes into a bespoke garment are not going to be the ones buying twenty suits at a time - more like just a few, just what they need.

Blame it on the runaway economy that has occurred recently, for example in New York, for swelling up the numbers of (but not necessarily the appreciation of) orders for bespoke garments.

Much like the restaurant business, where many chefs who are true artists have to reinvent themselves, many bespoke operations are reorganizing or reinventing themselves to maintain their work today. Gone are the days of the multi-course prix-fixe menus. Those who survive have reinvented themselves into places with smaller fares, or close all together. The artistic expressions are still there, but the gluttony is not.

- M

[aston]

Gentlemen

Lead, and lag. Economic cycles. As has been said, the apprentiship takes years. The drop in demand because a new(er) generation moves from bespoke to "designer" only registers after a few years, and the spiral results in less work, needing less trained craftsmen, and when the cycle reverses (which most do), there are inevitably fewer people with the requisite skill.

All the while, craft has been overwhelmed by greed, which itself has been driven by short-termism. But people do still spend years of their young lives training to be vets, surgeons and lawyers, not really , in the main, to become wealthy as a result, but because they think it is worthwhile. Not many, though, become thatchers, blacksmiths or coopers.

I cherish my bespoke wardrobe, and my (famous name) car, built by hand and not by robot, but my son, despite my best efforts, will probably be quite happy with a great suit measured by a computer. If he pulls as many pretty girls wearing laser cut stuff as I did wearing handsewn, I will be happy for him!

[Rowly]

This young apprentice would have old tailors seeing to it that he does it right because his learning is their life and strict duty. Young apprentices thought of nothing else for years, They dreamed about it. This incubation atmosphere of charm no longer exists. This honor of craft is obsolete in this day.

Integrity and honourable behaviour is frowned upon and discouraged in today's world, sadly.
I could say so much about this but where would I start...or stop? All I can say is it is a privilege to rub shoulders with, perhaps, the last generation of those who supply and those who appreciate simple reality. People today want mediocraty with lots of hype and have no time for real quality without hype.
As Goldsmith observed.. And, even while fashion's brightest arts decoy,the heart distrusting asks, if this be joy.

[old henry]

There is only one bespoke tailor under 80 in NYC. Mr. Logsdail.. Chris Despos in California. Jeffery Duditch is in .... ? Canada? Great tailor. But thats it. Tony Maurizio- 87yrs. Steve Salen- pushing 94. Vincent Nicolosi- 82-3. Raffael-82. Joe Vericot is plugging away in Fla at around 80.Foioravante-86-7. Not one apprentice. Thats it This is it. MTM..Computers.. 3D. Virtual. And along too goes good English cloth as we have seen..

[Eric_YoungTailor]

Good evening all.
I don't post much here but I do spend a great deal of time reading posts and marveling at the beautiful workmanship on display. I wanted to post a comment on this topic from a different view. I hope to not come across bitter in this "rant". I am an apprentice, or rather I was an apprentice. My wife and I sold all we own in order to pursue my love of tailoring. I was 26 at the time and together we moved to Italy where I learned under Maestro Gallo until our money ran out. I lived and breathed tailoring. For two years I was the first to arrive at the shop and the last to leave. When I went home to our closet sized studio I crouched by the little light source and practiced button holes. At night I dreamed the steps necessary to make a bespoke coat so perfectly described by Mr. Shattuck. I worked hard and even with the huge language barrier I was able to complete three full suits with the aid of my Meastro. 6 months ago we left Rome and returned to the states, broke but full of hope. I came back with experience anda basic understanding of suit making. Upon arrival to the states I hit the ground running I contacted every tailor in the states who remotely looked like he does something relatively close to bespoke work and I got nothing. Not one tailor wanted to "try" me out, most never responded to my calls or emails. I never asked for money just knowledge. All I wanted was to continue my work. To put in the time needed to become a Maestro and all I asked for was a master to help me. Frank is right you cannot learn this in a little time, you can't learn it on your own and no book will contain the information needed to train your hands what to feel or how to move. But if those in the know won't teach then tailoring is already dead and has no chance of even thinking about entering into the "computer age." I currently am trying (with little luck) to teach myself how to tailor when I am not at work in a coffee shop.
It just becomes boring hearing tailors complain about their craft dying when there are youth out there dying to work.

[dempsy444]

There is only one bespoke tailor under 80 in NYC. Mr. Logsdail.. Chris Despos in California. Jeffery Duditch is in .... ? Canada? Great tailor. But thats it. Tony Maurizio- 87yrs. Steve Salen- pushing 94. Vincent Nicolosi- 82-3. Raffael-82. Joe Vericot is plugging away in Fla at around 80.Foioravante-86-7. Not one apprentice. Thats it This is it. MTM..Computers.. 3D. Virtual. And along too goes good English cloth as we have seen..

just a small correction: Chris Despos is in Chicago. At least it seems that London and Italy are making a commitment to training new tailors, and there is at least a ray of hope, they will succeed with enough time. The US seems to be a different story.

[dempsy444]

Good evening all.
I don't post much here but I do spend a great deal of time reading posts and marveling at the beautiful workmanship on display. I wanted to post a comment on this topic from a different view. I hope to not come across bitter in this "rant". I am an apprentice, or rather I was an apprentice. My wife and I sold all we own in order to pursue my love of tailoring. I was 26 at the time and together we moved to Italy where I learned under Maestro Gallo until our money ran out. I lived and breathed tailoring. For two years I was the first to arrive at the shop and the last to leave. When I went home to our closet sized studio I crouched by the little light source and practiced button holes. At night I dreamed the steps necessary to make a bespoke coat so perfectly described by Mr. Shattuck. I worked hard and even with the huge language barrier I was able to complete three full suits with the aid of my Meastro. 6 months ago we left Rome and returned to the states, broke but full of hope. I came back with experience anda basic understanding of suit making. Upon arrival to the states I hit the ground running I contacted every tailor in the states who remotely looked like he does something relatively close to bespoke work and I got nothing. Not one tailor wanted to "try" me out, most never responded to my calls or emails. I never asked for money just knowledge. All I wanted was to continue my work. To put in the time needed to become a Maestro and all I asked for was a master to help me. Frank is right you cannot learn this in a little time, you can't learn it on your own and no book will contain the information needed to train your hands what to feel or how to move. But if those in the know won't teach then tailoring is already dead and has no chance of even thinking about entering into the "computer age." I currently am trying (with little luck) to teach myself how to tailor when I am not at work in a coffee shop.
It just becomes boring hearing tailors complain about their craft dying when there are youth out there dying to work.

Eric, I saw your interview on global post. You're a stud. Stay optimistic and keep chasing it.

http://www.globalpost.com/video/5525259 ... generation