Bespoke or rtw. Shoe Lasts?

[Rowly]

Is there anywhere one can obtain a shoe last which might be a replication of a stock Ed.Green, Cleaverley, G&G, etc? A rtw. last without the shoe, in other words? Or, have a bespoke last designed to be used with a favourite shoe, or shoe design from a catalogue? ....thanks, Rowly.

[Julian]

Is there anywhere one can obtain a shoe last which might be a replication of a stock Ed.Green, Cleaverley, G&G, etc? A rtw. last without the shoe, in other words? Or, have a bespoke last designed to be used with a favourite shoe, or shoe design from a catalogue? ....thanks, Rowly.

I'm not sure if this gets you anywhere closer but G&G offer lasted shoe trees for all their bench-made shoes and I suspect that many (or maybe all) of the others do the same. Obviously a shoe tree is articulated and sprung in the middle so there will be ambiguity about the length and there will be loss of detail (i.e. no contours to follow) around the mid point and ambiguity regarding the heel alignment but a lasted shoe tree should at least define the forefoot and toe box perfectly. I assume that you have a shoemaker in mind to build what you want from the last so it might be an idea that's worth bouncing off whomever you have in mind.

My other observation is that at least the G&G made to order program (I have no knowledge of the others) has a lot more flexibility than some people realise (e.g. the ability to change brogueing lines, medallions, special order materials and probably other stuff too) so if your underlying issue is liking a particular last but not the designs or materials themselves then it's possible that, by pushing the boundaries of the available MTO customisations, you might get what you want by getting the manufacturer to make something for you. The waiting list for G&G is pretty horrible at the moment though, about 5 to 6 months (and that's shorter than it has been in the past).

- Julian

[Rowly]

Thanks for the detailed reply. What I'm hoping to do is have my own personal lasts in the style of certain shoes I admire. Then I hope to make a quest and a hobby of finding some excellent artisan shoemakers whose unsung skills are as good as the best and are only limited to their access to quality materials. Like visiting tailors on a cmt basis...I hope to do the same with shoemakers. My plan is to get the lasts, source where I can get the highest quality leathers etc...and then search out these artisans in small, hidden away studios and attics, and provide them with some support as well as providing myself with some nice shoes.
To date, I have discovered Spring Line last makers in Northampton. I will report further when I have contacted them.... thanks, Rowly.

[cathach]

Rowly,

Theres also Bobcol in Norwich. Tutty's in Naas by the way have a 3D scanner as mentioned in this post on permanent style http://www.permanentstyle.co.uk/2009/06 ... -true.html I looked into this myself before, one of the main disadvantages is that it takes several visits to get the fit and shape and everything else right, so possibly several pairs of shoes. One thing is that different shoemakers use lasts different ways and some build the bespoke last up with leather patches etc. So Bobcol for instance much prefer to have measurements taken by the shoemaker you plan to use.

I fully agree with you on trying to source leather etc., many of the ''antiqued'' shades of leather used by Grenson, G&G are quite hard to find and I would love to get some for my own shoemaker to use. Their leathers for mens shoes tend to be a bit conservative.

Another thing to be borne in mind is that the shoes will have to be sent back to the maker to be re-soled etc. so splitting your 'shoe wardrobe' between a number of different makers may unnecessarily complicate things and of course add to the expense with postage and the rest.

[davidhuh]

Dear Cathach,

the 3D scanner you are referring to used to be at Lodger on Clifford Street. I went there about a year ago to try their system. The scanner was gone, I was told that the system did not really work in a satisfactory way...

I don't think it is such a good idea to have a last made and use it for different shoe makers. Sounds a bit like having a pattern made by a tailor and using it with different tailors But Rowly may prove me wrong.

Cheers, david

[cathach]

David,

i agree with you there. It would be a very difficult undertaking. But I'm certainly interested in finding different leathers, does anyone have any suggestions for find interesting shades of leathers for shoe-making? I've had very little luck so far.

Micheál

[Rowly]

cathach, On a recent visit to C&J, Jermyn st, they told me that their finest leathers for their hand grade shoes come from a small tannery in Bavaria. I'm sure there aren't too many top suppliers left, so it should be easy to find...the question is will they have a minimum order, or will they sell say, 1 skin? I will report my findings.

David, my thinking was to get, if possible, a last that is just what I want eg. Ed Greene square toed 888 last in 8f, as used in the Inverness shoe( or it's replica). Before investing in expensive leathers, the plan was to try a few shoemakers ( the back strret unsung heroes, as mentioned)...if the first one was fine, then I need look no more..or as soon as I am satisfied with the results..I will look no further, and be prepared to invest in top quality materials, etc. They say it takes three suits before you get what you want. My thinking is that if the last is a constant...then the workmanship is the variable and the results from a small number can be compared.This can be done at a relatively inexpensive cost compared to the big hitters. Like tailors, I feel very confident that there are very capable Artisans who take a personal pride in doing all the work by hand themselves, who would put some of the big boys to shame. It would be fun to prove this theory right.

[davidhuh]

Dear Rowly,

I understand what you are looking for. Perhaps you need to go and see some shoemakers who do MTO and bespoke? Have you talked to Tricker, Foster, G&G, Cleverly, Alfred Sargent?

There is this thread about the new Balmoral boot, http://www.thelondonlounge.net/forum/vi ... =2&t=10253
I was in touch with Mr. Chay Cooper because I am interested. He sent three lasts to chose from and I was lost. I know my left foot is a half size bigger and my instep is terrible. So we decided that I would visit the factory in Northampton, they could measure up my feet properly and we take it from there.

I still think you should find your shoemaker rather than walk around with your last

kind regards, David

[Rowly]

David, you are probably right. Any good shoemaker can show me work he has already completed, which will show the quality of his work. I will need to have something made to test the quality of his fit. He will probably have a variety of lasts for different styles and shapes of shoes. Maybe I would be better to show him a pic of the style I want and let him tell me what last I will need. All the same, I like the image of myself hawking my last around like Cinderella, hoping to find the shoe to fit it. .. ,Rowly

[NJS]

Rowly - Have you thought of Tim Little in King's Road. He comes in cheaper than the bigger names and has quite a customer list?
NJS

[Rowly]

Thanks, NJS.....I will look into that.

[Rowly]

A few interesting links...
Edward Green....Note the number of machines used, e.g the perforations are done by machine although the stitching is done by hand. Hand closing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_0hczSirzY

Crockett and Jones
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRYBZngd ... re=related

John Lobb
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3nDhJET ... re=related

Dress with Style..Alden reports on how to Antique your shoes
http://www.thelondonlounge.net/forum/vi ... =42&t=9520

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOXv_c1vYcM

http://www.springline.net/contact.htm

http://leffot.com/2008/06/28/oak-bark-l ... t-exactly/

http://www.thomasware.co.uk/tannedsoleleather.html
==================================

Chestnut vs. Oak-bark soles?
http://www.gentlemanscorner.com/2009/11 ... und-1.html
An interesting article from Will, with further advice from one of his readers......
http://asuitablewardrobe.dynend.com/200 ... -food.html

FWIW, all of the British Bespoke firms use oak-bark tanned leather for both insoles and outsoles from J &FJ Baker & Co of Devon, England (http://www.jfjbaker.co.uk/), rather than Rendenbach. The Baker leather is a bit more 'mellow' and considerably easier to sew by hand than the Rendenbach, which is very hard and 'flinty,'

G&G RTW, they may well use Rendenbach for the RTW line, as I think E Green does as well.

[zakalwe]

I could probably add some input to this thread considering it's my line of work. I'll begin with the lasts because that's my particular area of expertise.

You can certainly get a last made from one of the places mentioned above but wether it will be satisfactory is a different matter; they won't ever be making shoes themselves on their last and have no idea how it will look or fit when made up. They would also be reluctant to make any adjustments after you find, for instance, that a crease on the vamp is pinching your toe because firstly, they won't know how, and secondly, they can always blame whatever maker you hired to do the work. These companies exist primarily to take a prototype from a company and digitally create a range of sizes for mass production, so if you're after a bespoke last you'll be best to go to a bespoke bookmaker. Good luck trying to get a last out of one of them though.

This line from C&J about the finest leathers for particular work coming from a small tannery in Bavaria sounds like a great story, one I'm sure customers lap up, though I doubt it very much. I'd even go as far as saying it's a lie. There was once a great tannery in Germany by the name of Freudenberg, still used as a benchmark for quality for those who remember or have access to the remaining skins, but this closed down a good while ago and I don't know of any others of note in Germany. There's not a great profit margin in tanning and tanneries operate on a large scale producing all grades of leather (no such thing as a top supplier, you just get lucky with some skins) - around 5% of which is truly high grade and used only in bespoke work, the rest going to mass production. There's too much work involved setting up the production line for a particular style of shoe to limit it to a run of a dozen pairs because you only have so many skins and you have a number of shops to supply. If you do contact a tannery you'll probably find no joy buying leather either, especially in low numbers. However you can simply go to the merchants that they supply and buy single skins. Somewhere like Crack in Northampton would be happy to let you rummage around their odd skins for something that appeals to you, and they will have plenty. And don't forget you'll need linings too. And beading.

Lets say you have the lasts and a skin, you need someone to make the upper first. This happens in a few stages, a pattern is cut, it's used as a template to click out the upper from the skin and then it's closed. You might find a closer who can do it all for you, they usually can in bespoke but if you find a factory closer then I would doubt it. I would guess that there are about 7 or 8 bespoke closers working in the UK for all firms.

You'll need a maker next to assemble everything for you, last the upper over your last, prepare the insole, make the threads, sew the welt, stitch the sole, build the heel and so forth, and you will have to provide him or her with the rough stuff for all of this. Pit tanned sole leather is best, oak bark, chestnuts and the like, usually both and a lot more at the same time (why only one or the other in that article?), the best place for this is the only one left in the UK - Bakers. Insoles, heel lifts, toe puffs, counters, welt, soles, all different and all essential.

Of course the biggest pitfall is that if anything were to go wrong at any stage you won't have much luck with each person down the line fixing their mistakes because they'll all be able to claim it was the fault of someone else. Heels are slipping? Not my lasts fault, the patter cutter cut it too low. No wait the maker pulled it too far down at the back. Oh, it was the closer not adding enough allowance.

Best of luck, and though it sounds like I'm trying to put you off I'm not - it's a massive undertaking to go it alone if you really do want a pair of lasts for your experimenting one of the larger West End firms are usually very helpful to anyone who asks, more than most people would imagine they would be considering their size.

[m-lan]

You might find a closer who can do it all for you... I would guess that there are about 7 or 8...

It's not that difficult.

There are colleges and workshops offering shoe making classes right in the center of London.

If you wish, you may take the course yourself.

Here for one: http://carreducker.com/courses


To answer the original question, there is always Springline.

[zakalwe]

For what it offers - a 2 week hands on demonstration of how a shoe is assembled - I'm sure Mr Ducker's course is very enjoyable, though I don't see how you can learn anything meaningful in that time. You certainly won't be taught anything on pattern cutting or closing because you are given an upper to work with and, crucially, Mr Ducker is a maker so this is what is taught. You can learn pattern cutting at Cordwainers but all the hand crafting lessons were shut down after they were absorbed into the College of Fashion and are now geared towards design, dealing with factories and so forth. For courses you would be better served looking at the offerings available in Japan, they have a passion for the traditional hand craft that increases the more it dies over here with young people interested in shoes more keen to become designers.