Number of Fittings

[dempsy444]

Thanks.

[mmkn2]

If the stylist/fitter, tailor, and client are [relatively] constant, then the number of fittings is really a function of the cloth.

- M

[Costi]

If the stylist/fitter, tailor, and client is [relatively] constant, then the number of fittings is really a function of the cloth.

- M

Yes, that is also true, I believe. Some cloths are a dream to work and wear, while others are a nightmare (5+ fittings & going strong...)

[dempsy444]

Any thoughts on the fit?

[shredder]

I'm bemused by the popular tendency to quantify something qualitative. It seems to be an attempt to apply the factory paradigm to the work bench. But then again, there is no shortage of clueless management consultants telling people to apply six sigma to artisanal workshops.

[NJS]

I'm bemused by the popular tendency to quantify something qualitative. It seems to be an attempt to apply the factory paradigm to the work bench. But then again, there is no shortage of clueless management consultants telling people to apply six sigma to artisanal workshops.

Quite: if it ain't bust, don't fix it.
NJS

[Leonard Logsdail]

Uppercase,

I'm trying to reconcile the popular view here that a a very skilled tailor can get a suit right in two (or even a single) fitting with Alden's suggestion that working with a traveling tailor is a disadvantage to a client because it leads to long lapses between fittings and thus perhaps miss-fittings. If a skilled tailor can get it right in fewer fittings, why can't a skilled tailor get it right in larger gaps between fittings?

I for one appreciate the fact that tailors travel to my city.

One point that often gets overlooked in the bespoke clothing world is the (human factor). We make mistakes. Our tailor may have had a row with his wife the night before and is bringing his anger with her to work (I have sent tailors home before now for the day because of this), the cutter might just cut to one side of the chalk line and the tailor may just take a slightly larger or smaller seam. In other words, while we strive to get it right out of the box, there are many factors that can be introduced to the making of a suit which can result in a garment being less than what is expected. And there is often no way to tell until the suit has been delivered.

From my experience, if a tailor visits your home city and you like him, on occasions you might find alterations necessary to a garment even if the one before was perfect. But the convenience of his visit is, I believe, worth this little bit of inconsistency. If you are fortunate enough to live within striking distance of a bespoke tailor of your liking, then you should be considered fortunate.

[shredder]

No Six Sigma, eh? Bugger.

[uppercase]

Uppercase,

I'm trying to reconcile the popular view here that a a very skilled tailor can get a suit right in two (or even a single) fitting with Alden's suggestion that working with a traveling tailor is a disadvantage to a client because it leads to long lapses between fittings and thus perhaps miss-fittings. If a skilled tailor can get it right in fewer fittings, why can't a skilled tailor get it right in larger gaps between fittings?

I for one appreciate the fact that tailors travel to my city.

One point that often gets overlooked in the bespoke clothing world is the (human factor). We make mistakes. Our tailor may have had a row with his wife the night before and is bringing his anger with her to work (I have sent tailors home before now for the day because of this), the cutter might just cut to one side of the chalk line and the tailor may just take a slightly larger or smaller seam. In other words, while we strive to get it right out of the box, there are many factors that can be introduced to the making of a suit which can result in a garment being less than what is expected. And there is often no way to tell until the suit has been delivered.

From my experience, if a tailor visits your home city and you like him, on occasions you might find alterations necessary to a garment even if the one before was perfect. But the convenience of his visit is, I believe, worth this little bit of inconsistency. If you are fortunate enough to live within striking distance of a bespoke tailor of your liking, then you should be considered fortunate.

This seems to me an eminently reasonable and fair take on matters.

[Costi]

Our tailor may have had a row with his wife the night before

...hence Saville Row

[dempsy444]

L. Logsdail, thanks for sharing your experienced perspective. Perhaps a good strategy is to find out when a tailor has his/her vacation and schedule a fitting quickly after;)

[Despos]

Some perspective from a tailors point of view. Fittings are where the rubber meets the road. With a new client it is flesh and bones created from all the preliminary discussion and analysis between client and tailor. It is the tangible transition/translation of tape measure to paper to cloth.
My main concern of a first fitting is to check balance and length. I don’t try to shape the body of a jacket at this point because changes to a garment balance will change how and where I shape a jacket. I even cut the sleeves one or two sizes larger. If the jacket fronts are too short the fronts will be full and the front edge will have more overlap, the back will lie close against the body. If the fronts are too long the overlap decreases, cloth moves to the side and the side seams will seem loose. When you change front/back balance you change the perspective of the jacket length. First fitting; adjust for front/back balance, determine length, see where, how much and on which seams to shape the garment.
Now the garment is opened completely and I make the adjustments but want another basted fitting because for every action there is a reaction. I want to visually confirm the overlap of the fronts and the length. Trimming off the front edge is permanent and I won’t do this until the balance is correct. Too many tailors pull the fronts to meet and it distorts the clean hang of the fronts. I want the front to hang and close naturally. Second basted fitting is to analyze the effect of the corrections and fine tune the fit.
If the balance at the first fitting is correct I would go to a forward fitting with lapels made, sides closed and the body lined. Just basted shoulders collar and sleeves.
Next we finish the jacket but my preference is to try the jacket again before cutting buttonholes to catch anything else that can be corrected or improved.

I constantly try to improve to minimize the amount of adjustments needed at the fitting. Surprises are unexpected but do occur. My father was as excellent tailor and he told me when you want to try a new pattern, cut it exactly how it is made and don’t manipulate anything so you learn the attributes of the cut. So about 20 years ago I made my own “ready made” pattern, to develop a “base” to work from. I don’t know hardly any tailors that have ever made up there own pattern to fit as a 40R on a mannequin. This became my base to use and adjust from for different postures. Everything improved.
Don’t discount RTW cutting and pattern making, the research and development of their cutting systems is technically without comparison and tailors can learn and apply from this. I still draft a pattern for each client, I don’t use this as a block pattern just a platform /base to start from.
This is also the issue of what goes wrong in MTM. The person measuring, seldom (from my experience) knows or understands the attributes of the block pattern used for the cutting of the garment and therefore the measurements can complicate things. When you understand the balance and proportion of the pattern you let the pattern do the work with an assist from your measurements. Applying the correct silhouette and cut for the clients body type is most important to make the suit a success in MTM.

The biggest error I make is misreading the clients body type or underestimating a prominent blade or chest. This is where having a base helps. An example; client is getting measured and his shirt is so tight and he stands so erect that I think he has a very prominent chest. Well he doesn’t. He has an erect posture and a tight shirt. Easy enough to correct for. Another client repeatedly refers to himself as “overweight” so I believe him and cut for a portly build. He is actually just stocky with the beginnings of a pear shaped silhouette and he can basically wear a regular cut that is proportioned to him but doesn’t need the adjustments for a portly build. All correctable after the fitting but these are the things that occur. Reading every curve and angle of a clients build is an art of fitting/measuring and is a critical skill for any tailor.

Time span between fittings is as much an issue for the tailor as the client. Client ordered three trousers in March and came to pick them up in August but he was 37 lbs lighter. Reduced the waist over 2” and had to trim the legs from seat to hem. Another started a new exercise program and gained one to two inches in the chest, waist and seat. Had to let everything out.

I’ve made great fitting clothes with one fitting, have made multiple garments for clients with no fittings (developed a system for doing this) but prefer to fit as many times as needed to get the best result for myself and the client. What I’ve tried to convey and explain here is that the fitting processes used by tailors is different and unique to the tailor you use and represents the methodology of the tailor. There isn’t a rule.

[dempsy444]

I constantly try to improve to minimize the amount of adjustments needed at the fitting. Surprises are unexpected but do occur. My father was as excellent tailor and he told me when you want to try a new pattern, cut it exactly how it is made and don’t manipulate anything so you learn the attributes of the cut. So about 20 years ago I made my own “ready made” pattern, to develop a “base” to work from. I don’t know hardly any tailors that have ever made up there own pattern to fit as a 40R on a mannequin. This became my base to use and adjust from for different postures. Everything improved. Don’t discount RTW cutting and pattern making, the research and development of their cutting systems is technically without comparison and tailors can learn and apply from this. I still draft a pattern for each client, I don’t use this as a block pattern just a platform /base to start from.

So it sounds like you draft a personal pattern to capture the client's measurements, shape and disproportions, but then use a base battern as a tool to make adjustments that arise while also maintaining the integrity of the pattern?

I agree with your perspective on RTW. I have been surprised at how well certain RTW brands fit, though they are often even more expensive than bespoke! One paradox I am learning as I continue to introduce myself to bespoke is that while the best suits in the world are bespoke, bespoke suits are not necessarily the best. There is a lot of room for error in bespoke that does not exist in RTW. And the client's learning curve is as much a source for this error as the tailor's expertise. As an aside, the one significant limitation I see with RTW (for a relatively proportionate figure) is the shoulder. Maybe I haven't seen the right RTW suit but I have yet to see a fully convincing RTW shoulder on a person. Even when I see someone wearing a Brioni or a Kiton, to me the shoulder still doesn't look like it belongs to them. It just has a template look. It can be a very nice template, but it is still a template.

This is also the issue of what goes wrong in MTM. The person measuring, seldom (from my experience) knows or understands the attributes of the block pattern used for the cutting of the garment and therefore the measurements can complicate things. When you understand the balance and proportion of the pattern you let the pattern do the work with an assist from your measurements. Applying the correct silhouette and cut for the clients body type is most important to make the suit a success in MTM.

My experience with M2M confirms this. I have tried M2M several times in the past and each time the product has come back far off the mark because of either a misscomunication between the person taking the measurement in the US and the factory back in Italy or a lack of understanding for the block pattern by the sales person or in-house tailor. Sometimes the errors are just very basic. Once a US sales person confused inches and centemeters.

What I’ve tried to convey and explain here is that the fitting processes used by tailors is different and unique to the tailor you use and represents the methodology of the tailor. There isn’t a rule.

Thanks for taking the time to share your wisdom. This makes sense. I think it is easy for us who grew up on OTR to forget that fittings are part of a larger process towards a final product, not necessarily designed to display a near final suit to date. Many elements could be far off at a certain stage not because the tailor miss-estimated but because that is his method.

[uppercase]

Any thoughts on the fit?

Thoughts on the fit of what?

[Der Zuschneider]

It is possible to make 2 fittings and don't change almost anything. Just to be on the safe site whether the calculation of the draft is right. For normal figures this is possible. My master used block patterns with 3 fittings and his results were good. So this is working as well.

One fitting is at least necessary to check the length of the sleeves and the trousers, the sleeve length can be tricky cause it don't really depend on some zero point, so you have to check that. Also if someone has different shoulder heights, can be tricky as well.