Misshaped lapels

[Cravate Noire]

Savile Row has been booming making the same classic clothes they always made.

Hm, I think I have never seen more bespoke tailors starting mtm and rtw lines, many of them stylistically rather "offensive" in and around the Row as well as compromising quality.

Saying they went the "rtw Route" in Naples because many suits they make are stylistically different seems somewhat unfair to me, to be honest.

[alden]

Hm, I think I have never seen more bespoke tailors starting mtm and rtw lines, many of them stylistically rather "offensive" in and around the Row as well as compromising quality.Saying they went the "rtw Route" in Naples because many suits they make are stylistically different seems somewhat unfair to me, to be honest.

CN

Yes there have been eruptions of fashion forward stuff on SR but the key houses have kept to their traditional cut. The RTW and MTM of Huntsman is still classic Huntsman style, for example.

I think the likes of Kiton, Attolini, Isaia, Borelli et al have had a more pervasive influence on Neapolitan bespoke than RJ, Boateng or Chester Barrie have had on SR. But that view comes from a few decades (since 1976) watching Naples tailoring evolve. It’s only very recently that we have seen coats and lapels like the one in the OP. The Cesare Attolini I knew near the cinema on Via dei Mille did not make coats like that one (until recently.) And, yes, the truth often seems unfair.

Cheers

Michael

[alden]

Then the "irresistible" drive to express innate style. That's all we need to do, stop resisting it! And dress follows... how meaningful dress becomes when it DOES follow...

Somebody said to Charlie Chaplin once, “You never have any interesting camera angles.” And Chaplin replied, “I don’t need interesting camera angles—I am interesting!”

Young men tend to get the cart before the horse expecting clothes, cars or jobs to substitute for themselves. Youth is exhausted looking for interesting angles. As a man ages, illusions are swept aside and if he is fortunate “his” innate magnetism emerges, he becomes interesting.

I think this explains why men in their fifties have such success with women far younger. The young ladies are attracted to genuine strength and fly to it. They doubt the young men posing and angling hopelessly and leave the boys scratching their heads: Why is that old buzzard so damned attractive?

Cheers

[Costi]

angling hopelessly

Haha! Angling in all senses of the word...


Or the modern version...

[Cravate Noire]

Hm, I think I have never seen more bespoke tailors starting mtm and rtw lines, many of them stylistically rather "offensive" in and around the Row as well as compromising quality.Saying they went the "rtw Route" in Naples because many suits they make are stylistically different seems somewhat unfair to me, to be honest.

CN

Yes there have been eruptions of fashion forward stuff on SR but the key houses have kept to their traditional cut. The RTW and MTM of Huntsman is still classic Huntsman style, for example.

I think the likes of Kiton, Attolini, Isaia, Borelli et al have had a more pervasive influence on Neapolitan bespoke than RJ, Boateng or Chester Barrie have had on SR. But that view comes from a few decades (since 1976) watching Naples tailoring evolve. It’s only very recently that we have seen coats and lapels like the one in the OP. The Cesare Attolini I knew near the cinema on Via dei Mille did not make coats like that one (until recently.) And, yes, the truth often seems unfair.

Cheers

Michael

I see, obviously there was a change...you started watching more than 10years before I was born, hahaa.
However, I don't see where a high gorge (higher than the end of the tie know as you say, though I have very different knots) throws off balance that makes a coat totally unwearable.
Also, I carefully reread the part about the shape of the lapels and wonder where is the significant difference that makes the OP stylistically inacceptable and this example, I do only see that the OP are just wider at the top, but not differently shaped at the botton, considering that part: "(...) lapels that are very narrow at the button and blossom to be very wide" :

http://forthediscerningfew.files.wordpr ... fflin1.jpg
Again the OP:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-E0unwil6Amg/T ... 00/105.JPG



P.S.
I think there are much more important things that these stylistic issues that one may see this or that way... old, unattractive and stuffy from one perspective, perfectly elegant and classic from the other, unnecessarily modern and unbalanced and bland or perfectly elegant and contemporary, as long as it doesnt come with puff-sleeves, I like them all, if well made .
However, uneven darts, mediocre and sketchy finished breast pockets and primitive construction/finish overall etc. and last but not least the problem with pattern drafting many tailors have...like I mentioned in the other thread.
How many tailors out there can draft a pattern to make a properly fitting suit for the first time with only one or even no fittings ?
How many make a fitting to give the client the opportunity to check on stylistic choices and how many need several to get the fit right?
The answer is more than sad.

[alden]

However, I don't see where a high gorge (higher than the end of the tie know as you say, though I have very different knots) throws off balance that makes a coat totally unwearable.

My comments here relate to DB lapel height. The SB lapel can be worn higher.

The difference between the two coats you have shown can be seen at the button in the amount of lapel roll. The Attolini example has virtually no roll, the lapel is thin and then it suddenly becomes very wide. The lapel lacks harmony and balance. On my own coat you will see a rich roll of the lapel at the button point and an evolution to the top of the lapel that is balanced.

I wrote this article in about 2003 (viewtopic.php?f=32&t=5222) and it includes this comment about my own Neapolitan coat: “A three button roll through, the lapels are too discrete and sadly lack in richness.” My opinion has not changed.

How many tailors out there can draft a pattern to make a properly fitting suit for the first time with only one or even no fittings ?

A lot of the old time Italian tailors did not use patterns at all. They simply cut the cloth. Their eye was just that good and they could dial a client in with one fit. They are still to be found, but they are rare as pearls, and jealously guarded secrets.

Cheers

Michael

[Costi]

How many tailors out there can draft a pattern to make a properly fitting suit for the first time with only one or even no fittings ?
How many make a fitting to give the client the opportunity to check on stylistic choices and how many need several to get the fit right?

I know tailors who call the first fitting "the tailor's fitting". If he has expressed all his wishes clearly and if he trusts his tailor to know his job, the customer is little more than a living dummy at the first fitting.
My own tailor doesn't use paper patterns, he draws with chalk directly on cloth.
On an ideal body, I have seen him put just a couple of marks on the cloth at the first fitting, more to give the client the feeling that he was not called in for nothing. On customers with challenging physiques I suppose it is not possible to make a perfect suit the first time without fittings, because the tailor's notes and measures are not the equivalent of a 3D scan.
I am convinced that, after many years now, my tailor could make perfect suits for me without fittings. And he works like that for many of his customers who live abroad now, who have no time for fittings or don't enjoy them. But we like to do fittings, tweaking and adjusting - it is a permanent training for me, exercising my eye.

[alden]

As promised, here is a photo of a new DB with wider 30s style lapels. The thing to notice is the roll of the lapel at the button point, it is significant. And from the button point the lapels extends to width in an aesthetically pleasing way.

The cloth is a vintage brown Golden Bales flannel chalkstripe from H Lesser.



Cheers

Michael

[Costi]

And the almost horizontal lapel peak?

[alden]

And the almost horizontal lapel peak?

Exactly. That was characteristic of 30s era DB lapels.



I had once thought this kind of lapel suited only a tall, slender man until I studied Windsor's DB. This treatment adds masculine strength to the overall look. It broadens the chest.

The more upward lifting style lapel tends to lengthen the line. But when the lapels are cut to be very long with a low button point, high notch point and a high arching set, they frankly look clownish. And that is unfortunately something we see to often coming from Italy these days. It is a fad and it will pass..

[Costi]

And an important overlap? - not a lot of tie visible there (I don't mean in this picture )
The button placement (generously spaced, upper buttons not too much spread out) seems to work well with the more determinate line of the horizontal lapel, as you write. It all says "here to stay", in a way

[alden]

Costi

Yes, a good summary. I think once a tie is worn with this suit, the amount peeking out will be similar to the Windsor shot above. The overlap is about 15 cms. A man should be covered!

Michael

[yialabis]

The cloth is a vintage brown Golden Bales flannel chalkstripe from H Lesser.

Michael , I can not share much more than my usual sense of true inspiration from your projects + Costi has already made the worth seeing comments ,which my eye is not yet trained enough to be able to see for myself ..( I usually go Aaaaa ...yes I see) . So , the only think I have to add is ..what a fantastic cloth this is !! and how much I regret not having some of it when it was possible .

Regards
Vassilis

[Richard3]

So , the only think I have to add is ..what a fantastic cloth this is !! and how much I regret not having some of it when it was possible .

I managed to get a suit length of an old Lesser flannel with a red pin stripe - thank you again, Michael - and am eagerly awaiting the second fitting.

[alden]

Michael , I can not share much more than my usual sense of true inspiration from your projects + Costi has already made the worth seeing comments ,which my eye is not yet trained enough to be able to see for myself ..( I usually go Aaaaa ...yes I see) . So , the only think I have to add is ..what a fantastic cloth this is !! and how much I regret not having some of it when it was possible .

Thanks.We were very fortunate to get the last of the H. Lesser Golden Bale flannel in the 13-14 ozs quality. The color is a rich brown and the chalkstripe is grayish. It's a great combination. The day I picked up the suit, it was nearly 40 C in the shade. I wore the suit for about an hour chatting with my tailor. It felt so good I did not think to take it off. The cloth has great drape for its weight. I feels light but falls like a lead curtain. I am not sure this quality will be made again, but, if not, we can try to make something as well.

Cheers

Michael