Misshaped lapels

[alden]

In the recent posting of my DB coat, I described the forms of the ideal lapel and warned against misshapen ones. In particular, I spoke about lapels that are very narrow at the button and blossom to be very wide. Here is an example:



This coat is typical of the regional styling common in Naples. Lapels, both on SB and DB coats, are cut with the same inverse bend. It might look good on Via Chiaia but it may wear on you back home.

Another characteristic of the Naples coat that we see in this unhappy picture is the squared notch in a “step ladder” form. These very squared shapes, to my eye, are better suited to step ladders and not elegant lapels.

The best thing about this coat is the Solaro herringbone it is crafted from.

Cheers

M Alden

[Cravate Noire]

You don't like it, the Napoli stuff (and its smoothened high end derivates), eh?
I hope I'm not considered schizophrenic because I have bespoke items that would fit perfectly your "pattern" ( no pun intended) and others that would make up beautiful props for more this and that is off here threads!

[Costi]

Wide lapels are supposed to look generous, but when they grow out of thin air they make you doubt the authenticity of this displayed magnanimity...

[andreyb]

I always didn't liked such lapels and didn't find them aesthetically pleasant... now I know why.

Thank you, Michael!

Andrey

[alden]

Wide lapels are supposed to look generous, but when they grow out of thin air they make you doubt the authenticity of this displayed magnanimity...

And they are very unattractive.

Wide lapels are difficult for most men. In fact, few can wear them well, even if they are shaped well. So I have never understood the "recent" trend in Naples for gaudy wide lapels. The old time Neapolitan tailors did not dress men like they do these days. I think what we refer to as Neapolitan today has little to do with the true traditional styling we see in so many photos from the past. But the tailors who made elegant clothes in Naples vanished about a dozen years ago.

I am working on a DB with wider lapels at the very moment and had the second fitting this morning. So I will be able to post concrete images of my own ideas on the subject very soon.

Cheers

Michael

[alden]

You don't like it, the Napoli stuff (and its smoothened high end derivates), eh?

CN,

Good to see you.

I used this picture because some members had asked me to illustrate what I meant by the misshaped lapel in my own DB post and this picture illustrated it perfectly. The coat turned out to be from Naples (RTW possibly) and contained another questionable treatment, the very squared notch.

I was one of the very first to write about Naples and its sartorial treasures. I used to visit Naples back when a fully handmade suit made by one of the top five tailors cost $800. And the second tier of tailors, like Solito et al, cost $400. That was a long time ago. And the Neapolitan style that I saw back then was less extravagant, less Baroque. Some might say it was more neutral, more international. I think it was much better looking, more handsome, more suiting a man.

But I was never entirely convinced by the Neapolitan style, even back then. What I loved to see was the hand, needle and iron work. What I loved to feel on my body was the soft tailoring that became like a second skin over time. When I found that I could have these same benefits in a form that was more sober and more masculine, I seized upon it and built my wardrobe.

I would like to see Neapolitan style move back to the more elegant look from its past. If we let this wave pass, maybe the tailors will return to their roots someday.

There is nothing regional, exaggerated or Baroque in these coats. This is traditional Neapolitan style.









Not a bad or misshaped one in the bunch.

I didn't leave Naples, Naples left me.

Cheers

Michael

[Cravate Noire]

I would like to see Neapolitan style move back to the more elegant look from its past. If we let this wave pass, maybe the tailors will return to their roots someday.

Personally, I find this to be entirely a subject of personal preference, at least within limits.
However, if the Neapolitan tailors returned to make garments from a la 1950, this would inevitably lead to a downfall of all those who initiated the positive trend that makes bespoke tailoring a more attractive option again to many consumers (be it with questionable marketing und ultra-eccentric styling in some cases) and step up the quiet die out of the remaining older/smaller tailors.
90% (if not more) of the future bespoke clients (lets say my age group + 10 years) find several of my suits old, stuffy, but on the other hand I know many young man who consider bespoke only after they have seen extremely modernized, exaggerated items like those made by Sciamat (who have trademark the 90° notch btw., the Attolini notch in your (my) photo is not a right angle btw.).
It is important to maintain refreshment IMHO, including monstrousities and "exciting innovations" otherwise it may be really over sooner or later...

As for the very first statement in my post:
The same man who makes usually this:
(center)


And:




Had this done for a special client...the lapels on the waistcoat (not seen here) alone are larger than the lapels even on my db overcoats (ok, that client is very "grande", but still):




Btw. I asked him to heighten the gorge a bit on the next oder, his reaction revealed to me that you two would be make a good team .
Interestingly enough, even this tailor's cousin (also a bespoke tailor) is of the oppinion, that stylistically he is stuck in the 50s and overall pretty oldfashioned...and he is of about the same age (I haven't worked with the "modern cousin" yet, but plan to do so soon).
Most of the garments in the workshop of the cugino moderno looked rather Neapolitan btw. (they are both located in Florence) and he also told me that his clients are overall much younger than his cousin's (with me being the exception from the rule).
From the collar, to the shoulder points, placement of sleeve buttons and the dart on above the crease on the flat front trousers...it is just plain old...and lovely (and he had a Reid&Taylor grisaglia, made in the late 70s or 80s lying around...).
But for most younger bespoke clients, it doesn't work.


To underline again my "personal preference" point...I am flexible an love both worlds (you know how I mean this), but to lure friends into considering bespoke, the first jacket is a better choice, for the reasons I mentioned above.
(first ist Naples made, the Agnelli Tweed db was made up by my German tailor [who is also making something more modern right now...because he can] and the "stuffy" (beautiful) Florentine suit posted above speaks for itself.









And now Michael, to make your had explode:
Mr.Misshaped lapels prefers this (Attolini mtm) to his Attolini bespoke suits!!!

[dopey]

I have a Solito suit on today. While the lapels are wide, they do not start out skimpy, but rather have some belly to them, giving a soft curve right from the start. The notch is certainly much squarer than SR, but I am having a hard time being troubled by it. Overall, I the lapels perfectly graceful.
The lapels on my coats from NSM are style more along the lines illustrated in Alden's first photo, and that certainly gives them a very definite, regional look.

[Parker]

I actually like a "stairstep" notch and prefer straight cut lapels.

[alden]

I have a Solito suit on today. While the lapels are wide, they do not start out skimpy, but rather have some belly to them, giving a soft curve right from the start. The notch is certainly much squarer than SR, but I am having a hard time being troubled by it. Overall, I the lapels perfectly graceful.

The recent pictures I have seen from Solito show DB lapels that (to my eye) are too long, set too high on the chest, too pointy at the point, and as wide as an elephants' ears. And his coats are invariably too long. But I have seen some nicely cut and styled clothes from him as well.

I really don't mind regional styling per se. A man who has the means should possess whatever pleases him. Young men starting out, scraping together their first bespoke commissions, would be best advised to choose more neutral clothing that surely will be useful in a variety of situations and for a long period of time.

Cheers

Michael

[alden]

and prefer straight cut lapels.

All lapels, even those that appear straight, have belly to them. I prefer a straighter lapel myself as I find the look more dynamic, more vital. Very bellied lapels are dowdy in comparison.

What I am less convinced about are the lapels that are very thin and suddenly blossom into being overly wide (as set forth in my post and illustrated by the picture.) This creates a lack of balance in the line of the lapel that hurts my eye. It creates a kind of inverse belly.

This look has only recently been adopted by RTW Neapolitan designers (the first being Kiton) and in a weird quirk of fate, has been copied by bespoke tailors to the detriment of Naples sartorial reputation. Tailors in other cities of Italy largely discount Naples today as having sold out to RTW fashion. With rare exceptions, I have to agree with them and would assert that the best clothes being made today in Italy are to be found in Rome, Florence, in Puglia and in Sicily.

Cheers

M Alden

[alden]

Personally, I find this to be entirely a subject of personal preference, at least within limits.

Its all about personal preference.

CR, this may simply amaze you, but some old men (and it has been rumored "all" of them) were young at one time. And some of them bought wild clothes they thought would make them attractive. And with hindsight and the experience of seeing the clothes languish for decades in the closet when the snake oil had been rubbed off, they wish they could have invested the money elsewhere if they could do it over again. But since they can't do it over again, they sometimes suggest their juniors not make the same mistake. (Ten grand compounded over 30 years at a decent interest rate..anyone have a HP12C handy?)

I don't think that loud clothes or garish marketing have revived an interest in bespoke. Savile Row has been booming making the same classic clothes they always made. Most Italian tailors are making the clothes they always made as well. Naples alone has chosen the RTW fashion route that we hope is temporary.

The German suit looks very nice...but it could be the cloth. Well done.

Cheers

[Costi]

...but some old men (and it has been rumored "all" of them) were young at one time. And some of them bought wild clothes they thought would make them attractive. And with hindsight and the experience of seeing the clothes languish for decades in the closet when the snake oil had been rubbed off, they wish they could have invested the money elsewhere if they could do it over again. But since they can't do it over again, they sometimes suggest their juniors not make the same mistake.

Michael, I think what you write about is based on an essential premise: admitting failure. I find that this is very hard to get in the bespoke world. On the side of tailors and on the side of customers alike. Because of the personal involvement, because all of us have velleities of taste and style, because of the price of bespoke (and that is not an insignificant factor in refusing to admit failure!).
It's not about a fit failure, but about a style failure. We simply won't give in to evidence and won't admit we're off until... until what? I don't know really... It just happened to me once and ever since I have been reassessing my options and choices.
It's not a matter of making mistakes. I have few regrets and I would not repudiate any of my tailoring endeavours (with a few exceptions... ), but I am sure I would do them differently now.
But am I any wiser today, or in 10 years' time am I going to look back at what I am doing now and see everything through yet another set of lenses?

[alden]

But am I any wiser today, or in 10 years' time am I going to look back at what I am doing now and see everything through yet another set of lenses?

Probably. I think over time a man's style changes, at first in big bounds, then in small steps and finally with great finesse. I think it is complete hogwash the assertion that classic somehow means unchanging or glued shut. As a man ages, the confidence and courage (in some cases) to express an individual and innate style becomes irresistible and grows. We are in a race to catch up with ourselves. And dress follows. It never leads.

Cheers

Michael

[Costi]

Michael,

Wow, there is so much here...
The quest for one's style seen as an infinite convergent series of steps - you get ever closer to the limit, infinitely close, in ever smaller steps. That makes a lot of sense to me.

That also means ruling out many things that don't belong to the series... Perhaps that is what "exclusivity" should mean!
Then the "irresistible" drive to express innate style. That's all we need to do, stop resisting it!
And dress follows... how meaningful dress becomes when it DOES follow...