Huntsman bespoke shirts

[sartorius]

Personally, I place far more emphasis on making sure I'm happy with the end product rather than worrying too much on whether something is truly bespoke, hand-sewn, etc. etc.

I agree wholeheartedly. I have used Stephen Lachter for the last couple of years and his shirts are excellent. The fit is the best I have ever had, he has always turned orders around within 4 weeks, and he is flexible (no minimum order required). Frankly I couldn't care less how his shirts are made, or by whom. The end product is what counts. And with various other members complaining about fit issues, minimum orders, and having to wait months on end for commissions to arrive, I know where I would sooner invest...

[alden]

Personally, I place far more emphasis on making sure I'm happy with the end product rather than worrying too much on whether something is truly bespoke, hand-sewn, etc. etc.

Yes, a good deal depends on a client’s expectations and requirements.

I have tried excellent MTM makers and their shirts do not work for me given certain fitting challenges my physique offers (the reason I go to tailors in the first place.) I would have saved some time and money had I skipped MTM shirts altogether. The reason we try to differentiate true bespoke from MTM from RTW is so men can go directly to the service that will work best for them.

If a man has significant fit issues or wants hand made clothing, he should go the full bespoke route described here http://www.thelondonlounge.net/forum/vi ... =32&t=5108

Most shirtmaking these days should technically be called MTM. If a man has no major fit issues and wants a good choice of fabrics and detailing, a MTM provider could very well be sufficient.

I suppose what concerns me a bit is the marketing as full bespoke that which is in reality MTM to the extent that men who require more individual attention and pattern work will not "be happy" with the results.

I'll bet some of you guys who are easy fits must have a tough time imagining what being truly misshaped is all about!!

Cheers

Michael

[andreyb]

Michael, I agree with you... to an extent.

There are many excellent orthopedic shoemakers, able to resolve many serious fitting issues. Would you trust creation of your next bespoke pair to them? I doubt so.

On the other hand, would you trust creation of a pair to George Glasgow? Many US-based customers of "George Cleverley" atelier do so, and are quite happy with the result. Though Mr Glasgow is *not* making their lasts himself. Same true for Brian Lishak, who represents "Richard Anderson" on US West Coast.

I guess knowledge and experience of these two gentlemen (and let me add Mr Lachter to this circle, as I'm a satisfied customer of him) let them achieve results that sometimes surpass work of other houses, where a lastmaker/cutter takes measurements himself.

Andrey

[Costi]

Who really cares? As long as the shirts fit well, and you are happy with the final product and service, does it really make any difference if Lachter doesn't wield the knife himself?

Personally, I place far more emphasis on making sure I'm happy with the end product rather than worrying too much on whether something is truly bespoke, hand-sewn, etc. etc.

Interesting subject – this utilitarian approach seems hard to fight, but I think bespoke is more a matter of means than of results. Of course, the means and methods matter little (if at all) when the result is unsatisfactory. However, they do matter a lot when the result seems good, because they make the difference between a happy accident and a reliable, reproductible outcome. It may be argued that bespoke relies heavily on the human factor, hence a source of potential error - which is often true, but MOST errors can be corrected in a well-applied bespoke process due to its very nature, while the real possibility of error correction in an MTM process may be limited the nature of the process itself, by the technical means used or by the limited knowledge and skill of the person conducting it.
Longevity is a factor, too – some new MTM coats with glued-on interfacing may look better than a badly ironed floating canvas chest piece, but give it a a little time and things will change.
Even a clock that doesn’t work will tell time right twice a day. Satisfaction is not only of the immediate kind and, on the long term, it depends greatly on THE WAY things are done. Any change in one’s physique and what has been a perfect MTM shirt brand for a while becomes a mess when a pattern needs adjustment – so dissatisfaction of the customer, frustration of the maker, money and time lost on one or both sides. With bespoke, on the other hand, it is only in the nature of the business to adjust or even remake a pattern to account for any change. And who doesn’t change?...
Time and money spent on a relationship with a bespoke artisan is an investment that pays off in time, not just at the moment when we collect a nice suit or shirt. With a different kind of operation, the future may not be as important on either of the two sides and thus the approach (and the results) are different in substance, though they may look the same for brief periods of time. Even the Earth appears flat taken one square meter a time, but if you put things into perspective you will actually live a different life in a different world, even if your feet are still on same Earth.

[alden]

There are many excellent orthopedic shoemakers, able to resolve many serious fitting issues. Would you trust creation of your next bespoke pair to them? I doubt so.

In a way, yes. That comment made me think of a conversation with Tony Gaziano many years ago when he told me how much fitting difficult, physically challenged or even injured men gave him great satisfaction. I was very impressed by his sincere comment.

I think I have made it pretty clear that a man with style can dress himself from the Salvation Army as far as I am concerned. Please do not be offended, there is no pejorative associated to the term MTM in my mind. But if everything that glitters is in fact gold, then the concept of gold loses its meaning. We use the words to objectively describe a process and not an outcome.

Great outcomes can be obtained from many inspirations and techniques. But when it comes to shirts, the odds favor a good fit from a classic bespoke process. At least that has been my own experience. And if a man is fussy about shirts he may want to put all of lady luck in his favor. But I would never think of codifying my own experience into a general rule. “One man’s poison…” is all the more pertinent when we speak about what is a trade and an art form.

I have probably seen more disasters from the bespoke process than miracles over the years. And a good quality MTM or RTW often will surpass a mediocre artisan. But it would be bordering on incoherence to modify the lexicon of tailoring to assuage even the most gifted exception.

If you are happy with what you get from your shirtmaker, be happy, wear it well and show us your style. That is what matters on the LL, where the only acceptable outcome is STYLE!

Cheers

Michael

[andreyb]

Any change in one’s physique and what has been a perfect MTM shirt brand for a while becomes a mess when a pattern needs adjustment – so dissatisfaction of the customer, frustration of the maker, money and time lost on one or both sides. With bespoke, on the other hand, it is only in the nature of the business to adjust or even remake a pattern to account for any change. And who doesn’t change?...

Costi, usage of "MTM" word is really confusing in this discussion.

Alden refers as "MTM" a wide class of shirtmakers, as evident from his comment:

Most shirtmaking these days should technically be called MTM. If a man has no major fit issues and wants a good choice of fabrics and detailing, a MTM provider could very well be sufficient.

What you refer to as "MTM" is what usually meant by this word -- a factory-made garment based on a standard pattern with some modifications.

Badden commented on Mr Lachter, who is MTM in Alden's definition, but not MTM in your definition. Thus, he (or whoever else he uses) able to adjust or remake a pattern. In my case, he re-adjusted pattern twice (first time a significant adjustment, second time a minor one).

Andrey

[alden]

Andrey

The MTM process is much more efficient and sensible than bespoke. You begin with a stock pattern. Now you are beginning with what you know is an error and then make alterations to that error to get it right. That sounds very much wrong but in a way it is very much right because:

Most men will fit pretty close to the stock pattern (or will not know any better and be happy even if they do not) and will need minimal alterations. So why make a special, hand crafted pattern for someone who does not need one or does not realize they need one? And since you don't make a custom pattern, you don't need a cutter. You simply take the measurements, identify which stock pattern is closest, send the cloth and have the fitting made somewhere, anywhere.

The most expensive moment in production for bespoke is the first orders when the pattern is being created and perfected. Tailors invest mountains of time and effort in this phase hoping (and praying) to get follow on orders to recoup the development expenses. In MTM this huge outlay of effort and expense is not required. That makes perfect economic sense and it is reflected in the price of MTM as compared to true bespoke. It should be one third the cost of full bespoke.

The problem with MTM lies with the man who has enough experience to see that the fit really does not work for him and asks for a better fit. Most men, even if they sense something is wrong, will just go ahead and take the shirt. So in MTM you are going to be able to fit most men and the very few who will be unhappy, to continue the “happy” metaphor, will find another maker or go full bespoke.

If you happen to be in the lucky set of men who fit a stock pattern with minimum work, la vie est belle! Bravo, be happy! You are entitled to be even happier if you are paying the right price for a MTM shirt, about 125 euros.

If you do not fit into the set of men who are easy to fit (or do not know better), you have a problem. You need a different kind of process. And you should be prepared to pay a large premium for that service.

Not only this, but if you want hand sewn button holes on your shirt, you will want to visit a shirt maker who does hand work. It’s not an essential thing to most people except yours truly. I like hand work on my shirts and a hand sewn shoulder. And this even though a friend of mine, the greatest shirt maker of recent history now retired, assures me I am wrong to have any hand work on my shirt.

He is right and so am I.

Cheers

Michael

[andreyb]

Michael,

I agree wholeheartedly with what you said on MTM... Hey, I learned best part of what I know on bespoke and MTM from your writings, so why I shouldn't agree?

But when we apply your elegant description to the topic at hand -- namely, the shirts offered by Mr Lachter (and his UK colleagues, for that matter), should we consider them MTM?

The most expensive moment in production for bespoke is the first orders when the pattern is being created and perfected.

Touche!

Both Lachter and many of his UK colleagues do create patterns from scratch. In my own experience, Lachter created a special collar for me and modified my pattern twice.

So... bespoke?

However, many people say that if there are no fittings, this is not true bespoke. OK, I can accept that. But this has nothing to do with the pattern creation expense and/or ability to modify/re-cut the pattern.

Andrey

[alden]

Andrey

Did you have a basted fitting for your shirt? Or did the fitting arrive as a completed shirt and then altered and sent back again?

I was invited to visit an MTM factory (like the one that serves most of the London shirt merchants) in Italy. It was a state of the art factory with cad cam. The operator creates a file for the client, inputs the measures received from the merchant and a 3d shirt appears on the screen. The machine then cuts the shirt and it is sewn. The operator can modify the measures on the screen, change dimensions, add features like pockets etc. This is a virtual "pattern" (actually a computer file) that allows the merchant to tell a client he has his own pattern.

Funny story about this visit. A traditional shirtmaker was assisting this company as they wanted to make more high end shirts and they asked me to give some advice as well. To show me how well the machine worked they wanted to make me a shirt. So they took measures, input all the info and a half- hour later a shirt appeared. Well it did not fit well, it was a first fitting. So the shirtmaker went back to the operator and changed a few things and said to come back after lunch. The second shirt was about the same as the first and did not fit. I explained to the shirtmaker why it did not fit and he went back to the operator where he stayed most of the afternoon.

About a week later I got a call from the shirtmaker and we arranged to meet. He had a shirt with him and I tried it on. It fit. "So you finally got the machine to work", I said. He shook his head and pulled out a paper pattern from his case and said "No, I made the shirt the old fashioned way, the machine cannot do what I know how to do!"

Now you know the difference between MTM and traditional bespoke.

Cheers

Michael

[Costi]

Great story

I like hand work on my shirts and a hand sewn shoulder. And this even though a friend of mine, the greatest shirt maker of recent history now retired, assures me I am wrong to have any hand work on my shirt.

He is right and so am I.

Cheers

Michael

I am curious, what does he say about it?

[alden]

Costi

For most men, who are easy to fit or not too demanding in their fit requirements, the machine works fine. It is a great tool, saves loads of time and makes a shirt for about 15 gbp that can be sold for 250 gbp. A better money, erm, shirt making machine has not been devised.To earn that same 250 gbp a bespoke maker has to measure, make a paper pattern, do a muslin basted fit, adjust the pattern, a basted first fit, adjust the pattern, a second fit, adjust the a pattern and then make the shirt and finish by hand.

I am curious, what does he say about it?

He believes hand sewing to be too fragile for shirts. The seams might come apart after industrial cleaning and most shirtmakers do not want to deal with the hassle and risk of a client being annoyed. My repost has always been that I have been wearing hand sewn shirts for a few decades and never had a single problem of this kind. To which he replies, “Yes but you are not a classic client, you take good care of your shirts, you don’t send them out to cleaners.”

Voila

Michael

[andreyb]

Michael,

Again, I wholeheartedly agree with you. (And yes, that's a nice story! )

However, you seem to implicitly assume that if there are no basted fittings (there weren't in my case), Mr Lachter should use a computer program and make shirts in a centralized factory.

This is not necessarily the case... Moreover, Norton's web-site states that "our shirts are cut from a hand drafted individual pattern and hand made in our shirt workroom in London" (http://www.nortonandsons.co.uk/ -> "Shirtmaking"). When I visited Mr Lachter's atelier, I saw some parts of shirts (pockets, if I remember correctly) arrived from hand-embrodier... this indicates that at least he is able to intervene between the cutter (if he indeed doesn't cut himself) and sewers.

As I understand, the same is true for many of his UK colleagues (Budd, Dege, ...)

Andrey

[alden]

Andrey

This is what a bespoke shirtmaker looks like painstakingly fitting a client. This is a second basted fitting. What I "explicitly" confirm is that if you did not have two or three of these kinds of fittings, you did not have a bespoke shirt made.









Last year I interviewed some well known Jermyn street "bespoke" makers who are in vogue and they told me about the factory near (or in) London and said that all the shirtmakers use the same one. Their cloth selections from their books are stored there and they fill out a form that indicates how the shirt is to be made and it is made at the factory by machine. It is an efficient, sensible, cost effective and lucrative way to make shirts. It just isn't traditional bespoke.

Leaving bit and pieces of pockets or a paper pattern on the wall as decoration does not a bespoke maker make. Scenes from the real life of tailoring as evidenced above are more convincing. And as for marketing material on web sites.....lest we even waste our breath.

(Note: Pictured above is retired shirtmaker P. Duboin, LL member, and the most talented shirtmaker I have ever known or hope to meet.)

[Badden]

^ For an added upcharge, Harvie & Hudson offers a service similar to the one outlined by Alden (2-3 muslin fittings rather than 'sample' shirts). I believe these 'bespoke' shirts start around 220 GBP.

For my use, the 'MTM' (Alden definition not Costi) works out very well for shirts. If it ain't broke...

[Costi]

I don't know what "my definition" of MTM is, as opposed to Michael's. I call MTM a process that starts from a "default" or stock pattern which is then altered to a certain degree. How the shirt is then assembled is less relevant (but have you ever heard of handsewn MTM shirts?!).
I like Michael's story because it does a great job of illustrating how MTM can only go so far with alterations on a stock pattern, even if the person who decides how the alterations are made is knowledgeable. After a number of alterations and adjustments required by these alterations in other areas, you end up frustrated and feel like taking a blank sheet of paper and starting from zero. In general and in all fields of life, it is much harder to make corrections to a thing gone wrong that do it well from the outset or redo it if it went sour. With MTM, like Michael wrote, you START with a built-in error to which, by the very nature of the process, you bring successive corrections. It's like never learning from mistakes, there is no progress, no evolution, no improvement - as in the case of bespoke, where the pattern is perfected a little more every time (if you work with a good artisan). I'm sure you understand my point, Badden, and I also understand yours ("If it ain't broke..."), but you are telling me you are lucky and I am telling you that not everyone can rely on it