Experience with Norton & Sons

[Simon A]

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[BespokeMex]

I was seriously considering making the trip from California to comission my first suit to Norton and Sons. This thread has changed my mind. I'm thinking of trying Richard Anderson, instead. Does anyone have any experience with him?

[shredder]

I was seriously considering making the trip from California to comission my first suit to Norton and Sons. This thread has changed my mind. I'm thinking of trying Richard Anderson, instead. Does anyone have any experience with him?

A friend's father, who always look very stylish in the most understated way, was a Huntsman customer for a long time -- and so was his father and so on. When Lishak and Anderson went on their own, he followed them to the new shop. Now my friend, that is, his son, is also a RA customer. I think that says something, without getting into the minutiae?

[oxford]

It looks like Patrick Grant has just started branching out into blogging. I just heard that he started his own column for GQ:
http://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/comment/ar ... s-trousers

Supposedly that leaves even less time for running Norton & Sons...

[andreyb]

Funny that [beautifully designed] Norton's own web-site lacks any proper updates, with "Newsletter" from "LATE SUMMER 2010" and "Overseas Trips" advertising October visits.

Andrey

[carl browne]

Richard cut me one beautiful suit just before leaving Huntsman, and Brian helped me for some of the fittings in Beverly hills. After that, Terry Haste cut me some things, which were very good, but when Huntsman stopped traveling to Beverly Hills I switched to Richard Anderson. The odd thing about this is that Richard is the cutter with the extensive Huntsman training, having worked for Robert Packer, Colin Hammick and Brian Hall from the very beginning. Terry had been a cutter somewhere else before moving to Huntsman. Now Terry has moved on, and I don't think the cutters at Huntsman are quite as steeped in the Huntsman tradition as Richard Anderson is.

As I said, I DO like the things Terry cut for me while at Huntsman, but I have to say I prefer Richard Anderson's work. Richard's cut (for me) is a little fuller, with a bit more drape, (slightly) softer shoulder. This may seem a departure from the Huntsman model, but it's not. I'm built like a weight-lifter, so the shoulder doesn't need much building up to give me a Huntsman line, nor does the extra drape detract from it given my figure. Richard has the confidence to adapt his to cut to ME, whereas Terry was a little more mechanical about things. Terry's clothes have just a little more shoulder than I need, and are cut just a little too close to the body to be comfortable. The net result is that Richard's things are just a little more elegant.

A little bit about Brian Lishak: He's walking encyclopedia of the trade. He's been everywhere, seen everything, knows everything, and is extremely generous with his knowledge. He has a wonderful eye, has a great enthusiasm for beautiful cloth, and you'll never meet a more agreeable man. By the way, It's Brian that's constantly pushing the envelope, advocating new and interesting cloth. As I understand it, whenever they want to try something new, they have it made up to fit Richard first. This explains why the last time I was in the shop, Richard wore a suit of heavy blue-grey cotton denim. Not anything I would have thought of, but great in its own way.

Since Terry's no longer at Huntsman, I can't say exactly what things are like there now. I did know Peter Smith when I was still buying at Huntsman and would guess that anyone would be in very good hands there.

But I can reccomend Richard Anderson with no reservations.

[alden]

But I can recommend Richard Anderson with no reservations.

Brian and Richard are a great combination and their clothes are nothing short of superb. So I would second that recommendation.

From what I have seen Peter Smith has built an outstanding team as well. The clothes I see being made at Huntsman and the choice of fabrics is outstanding.

It is very nice to see the Row charged with new life and new customers. I hope it continues. There are so many good choices left in tailoring today.

And do not forget the tailors in New York who, in my mind represent a great value in terms of convenience and availability as opposed to traveling tailors or traveling clients, and have talent that equals or surpasses anything available in Europe.

With so many good options in the market, Norton will have to raise the level of their game substantially or lose out. Marketing is marketing but eventually in any business you have to deliver a product. That is what separates the men from the rest..

Cheers

M Alden

[BespokeMex]

I don't think the cutters at Huntsman are quite as steeped in the Huntsman tradition as Richard Anderson is.

Thank you for your input. I think you're right on. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that Richard Anderson is more Huntsman than Huntsman. After Shredder's post above, however, I ordered and read Richard Anderson's book Bespoke over the holiday weekend, and found it not only interesting and informative, but amusing as well. In it he describes how he started in the trade under Hammick and Hall and the inner workings of Savile Row tailor shops.

He writes how he and Lishack ventured on their own after Huntsman was purchased by a syndicate of retailers and investors who didn't know the tailoring business, following Hammick and Hall's retirement. This syndicate even got one of its members, an apprentice in Savile Row at one time, then working in the retail industry, hired as a tailor to spy on Lishack who was the Managing Director, and Anderson, who had become Head Cutter, before the purchase of the shop. Subsequently, Richard Anderson and Brian Lishack left and ended up hiring the majority of the tailors and staff (the good ones anyway) away from Huntsman.

I've been doing a lot of research lately, and I really like the Huntsman style the Richard Anderson way. So I've decided to give them a call and set up an appointment in the near future. An additional incentive for me is Richard's age. I figure he will be around about the same time I will (knock on wood). We are only a year apart.

[carl browne]

Richard's a little younger than I am, but I'm going to hate it if Brian retires.

[andreyb]

The odd thing about this is that Richard is the cutter with the extensive Huntsman training, having worked for Robert Packer

This is not quite accurate. Robert Packer owned Huntsman from 1932 till 1966; I doubt Richard Anderson ever saw him. He worked under Edward Packer, Robert's son.

He writes how he and Lishack ventured on their own after Huntsman was purchased by a syndicate of retailers and investors who didn't know the tailoring business, following Hammick and Hall's retirement. This syndicate even got one of its members, an apprentice in Savile Row at one time, then working in the retail industry, hired as a tailor to spy on Lishack who was the Managing Director, and Anderson, who had become Head Cutter, before the purchase of the shop. Subsequently, Richard Anderson and Brian Lishack left and ended up hiring the majority of the tailors and staff (the good ones anyway) away from Huntsman.

This is only one side of the story. Not necessarily wrong one, but still, only one of two sides. I'm sure that this "spying tailor", whose real name you can easily deduce, views and remembers things differently.

Andrey

[BespokeMex]

This is only one side of the story. Not necessarily wrong one, but still, only one of two sides. I'm sure that this "spying tailor", whose real name you can easily deduce, views and remembers things differently.

Andrey

I suppose this is true of any book that purports to tell a story involving numerous individuals. The book further indicates, however, that this syndicate including the "spying tailor," sold Huntsman 3 or 4 years after Anderson and Lishak left. I wonder why!

[carl browne]

Sorry, my mistake. Somehow I was under the impression that the younger and older Packers shared the same name. It was certainly the younger Packer.

[carl browne]

I will not enter the fray. I can only say that I was very happy with Richard and Brian when they were at Huntsman and had absolutely no cause for complaint with the firm after they left. Of course I've never been disappointed by a tailor and never met one I haven't liked.

Everything was going well until one day a friend of mine who had been a customer since the 1950s informed me that Huntsman was reorganizing in bankruptcy, (or the English equivelent) and while it was still operating, there would be no more Beverly Hills visits. I didn't have anything in make at the time, so there was no problem with fittings or delivery, but I was crestfallen. I place a high value on loyalty, and had always assumed that my connection to Huntsman would be permenant. But I only get out to London every few years, so the situation was hopeless.

I was informed that RA made regular Beverly Hills visits, so I made the change. I understand that a reorganized and successful Huntsman has resumed its Beverly Hills visits, but I'm so happy with RA that I have no intention of going back. I expect my connection to RA will be a permanent one.

[smudger]

As an occasional browser to the valuable sartorial resources discussed within the London Lounge, the content of this thread has prompted me to sign up and offer my experience as an “ex” Norton & Sons customer. I was recommended by a colleague to try Norton & Sons for a bespoke suit after having unsuccessful efforts with another Savile Row tailor. The colleague was an existing Norton’s client, so I felt the recommendation was grown from good soil and so made an appointment. At that time John Kent was the cutter or “Head cutter” which is how he was introduced and was generally overseeing the bespoke operation for Patrick Grant not long after he had bought the business. My initial Patrick Grant experience was similar to pur_sang, somewhat cold and non descript. Throughout the process of cloth selection whilst nailing the finer points of what style suit I would eventually posses Mr Grant quite arrogantly interrupted my questions and on several occasions talked straight through me. Although incredibly frustrated due to Mr Grants complete lack of understanding for the better points of good communication which didn’t impress his newest customer I was eventually measured up by Mr Kent.

Throughout my suits assembly, Mr Kent nurtured my first Norton’s suit competently, the end result was something I was “eventually” satisfied with. On its completion I promptly ordered two additional suits that were delivered with no hick ups and again the suits were satisfactory. Twelve months later I returned to Norton’s to place a further order and discovered John Kent had unfortunately been taken ill and was not due to return to work for some considerable length of time? Mr Webb his assistant cutter who I now believe is at Gieves & Hawkes had also left the company and Norton’s new cutter would be David Ward.

On the time of my scheduled appointment, Mr Grant was nowhere to be seen, even after he had informed me when I called to make the appointment that he would be at the premises to take my new order? I feel his disappearance that day was a good thing. In spite of Mr Grant’s mysterious absence I was looked after by Mr Ward. Mr Ward came across as a charming professional and knowledgeable young man. After cloth selection Mr Ward asked if he could take some quick check measurements to note any fluctuations in weight since my last visit. Unfortunately I had put on a bit here and there and so Mr Ward explained that he would re cut my pattern to account for my unfortunate increase in girth “Which I was slightly apprehensive about” and promised a fitting in a couple of weeks. Keeping his promise I returned for my first fitting and my immediate observation was thus.

I had been accustomed to satisfactory suits with the previous endeavours of Mr Kent , however after my pattern had been re cut by David Ward I can only convey the silhouette of this new fitting resembled all that I had ever wanted from my very first Savile Row suit. It had shape, elegant line and exquisite proportion. Everything about it seemed to a make mockery of what had gone before it. What was done with my pattern I’m not sure but what now came from it was wonderful. Through to the finished article its fit was immaculate. My only regret from my experience at Norton & Sons is that Mr Ward was not around at the time to cut my initial suits.

It is a shame that your experience at Norton’s was a negative one as my own experience and the experience of others who I have recently discovered were also clients at Norton’s testify to an increase in the overall quality of their garments, service and the general fit of the suits after Mr Kent had left and Mr Ward became Norton’s new cutter. Hopefully this will continue with the current cutter in spite of Mr Ward’s departure. Subsequently shortly after Mr Ward’s resignation whilst collecting a suit that was brought in for a minor repair I learned that two other individuals had also resigned from the company and the young American trainee was also to leave Norton’s! Deduce from that what you will gentlemen.

Four cutters in four years and numerous staff………………..? I think Mr Grant needs to rethink his E. Tautz, magazine cover infatuation as it would seem that for many who become an employee for Mr Grant, enough, very quickly becomes enough.

I am now a Huntsman client.

[alden]

Smudger

Entertaining read. It would be great to see some pics of the Kent and Ward suits, if you have a chance.

I suspect you will be quite happy at Huntsman.

It seems Mr Grant bought the Norton name hoping to turn it into a RTW brand. I suspect he never intended to continue in the bespoke tailoring trade.

Cheers

Michael