New Suit at George

[YoungLawyer]

I've just commissioned a new suit with George in Marylebone. These are the instructions that I gave. This is only my second bespoke suit, and the first with George. If you have any other ideas for things I should have asked for, do suggest, as it's better to be early.

I called in one morning last week before work. There isn't any need to make an appointment, but I rang the day before anyway. George was very friendly, and I had a good idea of what I would like - time will tell whether I was exact enough.

I've asked for a 3 piece in a 13oz dark grey herringbone by H&S.
s/b coat, notch lapels, 3 buttons, slightly sloping pockets, ticket pocket and single vent, with a dark green lining. I asked for particularly small armholes, and this time will keep a close eye on that area. I spend some time at a lectern and handing papers forward, and I'm after any tricks to keep a quiet collar and coat when doing that...

waistcoat with two pockets, no lapels - I forgot to specify how many buttons.

Trousers with high waist, single pleats, for braces, stright pockets, no turnups and a zip fly (a concession to modernity).
For those following the 'low cost bespoke' tailoring threads, that came to £670.

I need to go back to confirm a few details, namely that I would like horn buttons, and at the same time, I might adjust my order.
I am going to be very specific to ask for a fishtail-back on the trousers - I think he said he was going to do a stright back, and I need to make sure.
At the same time, I'm going to confirm the number of buttons on the waistcoat. I think I am going to ask for six buttons, with five to fasten, and I am in two minds about having a vertical button-hole for a watch-chain between the 3rd and 4th. I wouldn't use it often, but it would be fun to have it there.
I also forgot to ask to have the trousers half-lined to the knee.

I resisted the temptation to ask for cloth-covered buttons on the waistcoat. I'd seen that in an old suit on display in Ede, and thought it very smart indeed, but perhaps a little too much for an everyday suit.

As I'm very thin, I'm trying to have a coat which is quite close-fitting, with a slightly higher button stance than might be ordinary (I'd only ever fasten the middle button) and with slightly open quarters. I don't know when the best time to comment on the style of the jacket. I'd also like quite pronounced points on the waistcoat, but he seemed to say that he would do that at the next fitting. Has anyone used George before? Does anyone know what his default cut of lapel is like?

I also intend to have an extra pair of trousers made, but I intend to wear it for a few weeks first, so that I can incorporate any changes into the pattern. Hopefully it can be a year-round suit, and I can use it in summer without the waistcoat. 13oz isn't too heavy, I think, but he said it would be much more long-lasting than the 11/12 I started by looking at.

[Doug]

The art of waistcoat making seems to by something of a dying art, and waistcoats even from the top tailors tend to vary a lot so I would be try to be very, very specific about what you want or you risk disappointment. It is best to have a picture. It sounds like you want long points, which in my opinion looks excellent.

However, the excellent examples one sees from the past where made in a time when higher-waisted trousers were the norm, so the waistcoats themselves were shorter, and the shorter vests tended to elongate the leg line in a flattering way in my opinion. The default waistcoat length today seems to me too long, with short points and a bottom split that cuts away too sharply, all of which is to me unflattering.

Many waistcoats I have seen from the past also a had flattering waist suppression, but what I see today tends to be just a tube, and if the tube is also too long with short points ....well, you get the idea.

I'd love to see informative posts on the finer points of waistcoat style and make-up.

[alden]

The art of waistcoat making seems to by something of a dying art, and waistcoats even from the top tailors tend to vary a lot so I would be try to be very, very specific about what you want or you risk disappointment. It is best to have a picture. It sounds like you want long points, which in my opinion looks excellent.

However, the excellent examples one sees from the past where made in a time when higher-waisted trousers were the norm, so the waistcoats themselves were shorter, and the shorter vests tended to elongate the leg line in a flattering way in my opinion. The default waistcoat length today seems to me too long, with short points and a bottom split that cuts away too sharply, all of which is to me unflattering.

Doug, some very sound advice on waistcoats and you hit one of the major problems squarely on the head. Most men want to wear trousers cut like low rise jeans instead of those made with a high rise to be worn with braces. The resulting long funky waistcoats are made by specialized tailors who have probably lost the knack of making them the way they should be made.

IMGP3885 - Copy (3).JPG

Here is a selection of waistcoat models from 1935. You should be able to find a model to take to your tailor from this selection. But a picture will be of little use if your trousers are to be worn low.

Cheers

Michael

[YoungLawyer]

Thank you very much for your replies. It would be interesting to know what some of the thinner members prefer as regards the height of trousers. I am keen to avoid all sight of the waistband of the trousers when wearing a waistcoat. I often see the bottom stiching along the waistband peering out from below waistcoats, and it's not a look I like.

I'm going to ask for very high waisted trousers, and see what he produces, and I'll have an eye for waist supression on the waistcoat too - especially at the back. How many buttons would you say was standard for a waistcoat?

Alden, thank you once again for very good advice. I had that very fashion plate in mind. I had thought something similar to 862. Would you expect there to be "side vents" on side seams of the waistcoat from below the narrowest point on the natural waist?

I was also trying to avoid this, although it's doubtless a very fine example:
http://www.bownsbespoke.com/henrypoole3.html
where the waistcoat pattern seems to be on entirely stright lines. The points on the bottom could have been drawn with a ruler, and I'd prefer something more lively.

[bond_and_beyond]

YoungLawyer how much does George charge for a two-piece?

Thanks
S

[DFR]

A very interesting commission and one into which you have obviously put much thought.

It would be very sensible to stress all the various points at baste fitting, beyond that it is too late. Getting the waist line right on the trousers is important and would certainly concur with going very high and insisting on that and the fish tail back - makes a huge difference to fit and comfort. At least two/three inches above the navel depending upon your body.

What are you doing about pockets in trousers and coat - an oft neglected subject. The trousers would certainly lend themselves to a fob/waist band pocket to be used all the while, back pockets possibly not. What of the inside of the coat? I would however suggest you decxide what size you want pockets so that you get a) the size you want and b) a consistent size across all your commissions.

Good luck, keep us posted on how it goes it will be a good example of how one gets a tailor to follow instructions not his own preferences.

[old henry]

You guys know your stuff. I learn a lot here. Great point about high waisted pants and a proper length vest. Good for you. What do you Gents think about a high rise Hollywood waistband for YoungLawyer. Also to YoungLawyer - cut the center vent a bit high. 11 or 12 in or so. This is countryside sharp. ..FS

[YoungLawyer]

His prices are just about £500 for a 2/p in a 'basic' fabric of about 11/12oz. The Holland and S book was slightly more expensive, but I asked to be shown a hardwearing herringbone about 12oz, and he pointed at the 13oz in the H&S book. I approved, and was willing to be guided to that extent.

It's £150 for extra trousers or for a waistcoat, which to me seemed very reasonable.
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What a good point about pockets.

I asked for straight (vertical) pockets on the trousers. They look better to my eye than slanted, and then it'll stop me from walking around with hands in pockets. I'm not having a back pocket as I've never used them.

As I've a ticket pocket on the coat, I didn't ask for a fob pocket on the trousers. Having thought about it now, perhaps it would be a good idea for one of the trousers side pockets to be 'divided', so there is a space to keep a few cards without them moving around too much. I don't tend to carry many coins around so that's not a real issue.

I assume the coat will be made with two inside pockets, but I havn't discussed that at all. I tend never to use the hip pockets, but I do use the outside ticket pocket for an oyster card. Ideally, I'd ask for the ticket pocket to be very close to the hip pocket, but we haven't discussed that yet - I hope that'll come up at the first fitting.

I asked for a fob pocket on my dress trousers, which were part of my first bespoke commission. Rather strangely, he put it behind the braces button, which makes access rather difficult. For anyone thinking about a fob pocket - it's best to ask to have it set below the waistband at the front. Then it's possible to actually use it!
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I'm a little concerned at the number of fittings. He told me he did one, and very occasionally two fittings. That isn't many, but then he has to make some saving for his cost, and I know he has done more for one of my friends. I hope the first fitting will still be at the baste stage, and I'll have the leeway to make some corrections.
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I hope the waistband would be the same height at the front, so it would only be a slight difference. Nonetheless, I planned on having one cut one way, and the other the other, to see what worked best from him. I'd like to start with the fish-tail back however. This may sound silly, but I suspect he is used to cutting rather lower waisted trousers and coats on thin customers, and it'll be a battle to get them to sit on my natural waist.

One thing I've no experience of is having an adjustor on fish-tail trousers. My evening trousers have all been cut without them. What's the normal treatment; one each side, or one across the back?

The other thing I haven't asked about is the material for the lining. It was very early in the morning, and I just said "green please!" What would be his standard choice, and do you think I should specify another alternative. I suppose I've a week or so before the cloth arrives, so time is short!

[YoungLawyer]

Finally, a good point about the height of the vent. Does anyone have any guidance? Surely on a suit it shouldn't be as high as on a true hacking jacket, where it would go almost up to the natural waist?

[SMCK]

Perhaps I am old fashioned,but I really feel that single vents are for hacking jackets, for the simple reason that they work well for that purpose. I also see single vents on many off the peg and American suits ; maybe this is a look you like. You mention your oyster card, so I conclude that this is a city suit. To my mind double vents look much smarter and are more flattering to your figure. In the same old fashioned vein I think ticket pockets in general, spoil the line of most suits , which look look much smarter and less fussy without a ticket pocket. I can see their use,but a similar size inside pocket serves the same purpose. I used to hear a little motto which I feel applies to many things in life: 'Less is more.'

[Simon A]

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[YoungLawyer]

Re SMCK's comment, does anyone else feel so strongly opposed to single vents on a single breasted jacket? Any votes in favour? I'm not sure about 'tradition'; I can see that it's probably become usual for two vents from the 1960s onwards, but before that, I thought single vents were more usual with s/b coats? I can see the obvious practical advantage of double for having one's hands in one's pockets, but as that's not a good habit, I don't see that being such an issue! The problem I see with off-the-peg jackets with single vents is usually that the vent gapes open, which is an awful sight. I would hope that this one wouldn't, and I'll certainly have my eye out for that area.

[cdo]

Re. vent choice, it may depend on your body as my tailor pointed out to me that my combination of a hollow back and prominent rear seat meant that side vents are more flattering to me. My single vented coats and overcoats have a tendency to splay after a while despite being a fine fit initially.

Do fishtail trousers really need any adjusters? It is supposed to suspend from the shoulders via the braces and not from your waist/hips where the side adjusters are usually positioned.

One last personal note but I always have rear trouser pockets inserted in otherwise the rear of the trousers look feminine (to my eye). But maybe that's me looking at too many female trousered derrieres...

- C

[DFR]

His prices are just about £500 for a 2/p in a 'basic' fabric of about 11/12oz. The Holland and S book was slightly more expensive, but I asked to be shown a hardwearing herringbone about 12oz, and he pointed at the 13oz in the H&S book. I approved, and was willing to be guided to that extent.

It's £150 for extra trousers or for a waistcoat, which to me seemed very reasonable.
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What a good point about pockets.

I asked for straight (vertical) pockets on the trousers. They look better to my eye than slanted, and then it'll stop me from walking around with hands in pockets. I'm not having a back pocket as I've never used them.

As I've a ticket pocket on the coat, I didn't ask for a fob pocket on the trousers. Having thought about it now, perhaps it would be a good idea for one of the trousers side pockets to be 'divided', so there is a space to keep a few cards without them moving around too much. I don't tend to carry many coins around so that's not a real issue.

I assume the coat will be made with two inside pockets, but I havn't discussed that at all. I tend never to use the hip pockets, but I do use the outside ticket pocket for an oyster card. Ideally, I'd ask for the ticket pocket to be very close to the hip pocket, but we haven't discussed that yet - I hope that'll come up at the first fitting.

I asked for a fob pocket on my dress trousers, which were part of my first bespoke commission. Rather strangely, he put it behind the braces button, which makes access rather difficult. For anyone thinking about a fob pocket - it's best to ask to have it set below the waistband at the front. Then it's possible to actually use it! !

I would not make any assumptions about pockets and develop a 'standard' which you ask any tailor to whom you give a commission to work to.
I would agree with you on back pockets - certainly in high rise trousers they are superfluous as you will rarely remove your jacket and the simply do not look right. In casual trousers two are probably as cdo suggests below.

How odd for the fob pocket on your dress trousers. Agree it should be below the waist band and I would suggest you try one 4" x 4" and then adjust in the future.

I would recommend that you not assume what a tailor will do unless you know him and would certainly suggest that you try having at least one inside ticket pocket - again 4"x4" is a good size positioned at about the height of the second button in 3-button sb or equivalent on a 2-button. Very useful for the odd receipt or coin you inevitably collect during a typical day. Pen pocket is a good though. Both these on left or right as you choose.

Once you have decided what you like and need then prepare a sheet that can be given to any new tailor so he cannot misunderstand what you want. I did that some while ago and will cheerfully let you have sight - not really suitable for posting here.

On vents I would strongly urge you to have two side vents, not a single centre one. This does look better and flatters the body. Have a look about you - the only single vents are on current fashion RTW in the UK
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I'm a little concerned at the number of fittings. He told me he did one, and very occasionally two fittings. That isn't many, but then he has to make some saving for his cost, and I know he has done more for one of my friends. I hope the first fitting will still be at the baste stage, and I'll have the leeway to make some corrections.!

Two is better but his price may be a deterrent. You need to be robust in your demands at the baste fitting if only one.
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I hope the waistband would be the same height at the front, so it would only be a slight difference. Nonetheless, I planned on having one cut one way, and the other the other, to see what worked best from him. I'd like to start with the fish-tail back however. This may sound silly, but I suspect he is used to cutting rather lower waisted trousers and coats on thin customers, and it'll be a battle to get them to sit on my natural waist. !

Fish tail backs are normally higher at the rear though you could try both. If it is low he will almost certainly insist on a straight back which does not hang as well.

One thing I've no experience of is having an adjustor on fish-tail trousers. My evening trousers have all been cut without them. What's the normal treatment; one each side, or one across the back?

Either is normal depends upon tailor. Side possibly preferable

The other thing I haven't asked about is the material for the lining. It was very early in the morning, and I just said "green please!" What would be his standard choice, and do you think I should specify another alternative. I suppose I've a week or so before the cloth arrives, so time is short!

You need to stipulate - find a Lear Brown and Dunford Satin - T3xx range is better at 160 gsm. T328 is a good bottle green to go with a dark grey.

[YoungLawyer]

Thank you all, once again. I hope if I go back to him on Friday morning, it's not too late!

It's strange that noone has come out in defence of a single vent. I'd instinctively have twin vents with a d/b coat, but does noone have them for a sb here? Why the difference in attitude between a sports coat and a suit coat?

I'm still a little unclear about what to ask for the lining DFR, is that a book of cloth?

I'd be very keen to see your plan for pockets too, are you able to send that by a private message?