Creating open quarters by cut or fit

[Doug]

Two things I have admired about the LL Sartoria cut are the high gorge/wide notch and the fairly straight and moderately open quarters, the latter of which makes for a nice X as distinct from a closed quarters Y or the back-to-back Cs which to my eye are less appealing.

From the various photos of Michael in his jackets and his photo of a LL Sartoria Donkey Flannel jacket on a form, it appears to me that the slightly open quarters are achieved by the pitch of the jacket on the wearer rather than by means of the cut. In other words, the cut itself is closed, with the bottom button directly in line with the waist button, but the opening of the quarters is achieved by the way the jacket sits on the wearer. My impression is this is also how A&S and Steed create slightly open quarters (when they do that). By contrast, my impression is that Huntsman when making its classic one-button silhouette creates open quarters with the cut itself, rather than or perhaps in addition to the fit.

Is my understanding correct? Second, what are the considerations, mechanical or aesthetic, that should lead to the creation of slightly open quarters by one method or the other?

[SMCK]

What a good question Doug, I have been wondering the same myself and do hope that someone may be able to reply.

[old henry]

Gentlemen. I do not like to see the shirt and tie peeking out from under the button. Higher rise trousers and closed quarters will prevent this. Yes , The bottom button directly in line with the waist button and maybe even continuing the line down a bit further. Complaints from one customer in particular made me try to figure this out .. I believe the LL Donkey Flannel represents this [?] If the customer stands erect and the pattern is not adapted accordingly the quarters will cross. If the customer is a bit stooped and the pattern is not adapted accordingly the quarters will open. The coat is designed on and for the customer. The pitch [or balance} has nothing to do with the desired quarters , open or closed . I hope this might answer some of your questions . FS.

[alden]

Is this the sartorial equivalent of nature vs nurture? A coat has to be cut with the desired front quarter design, open or closed. And then for the cutting to take effect, the coat has to be fit properly to avoid the various calamities that Frank has described so well.

I have always felt that the Neapolitans overdo the open front quarters and SR defaults to a dowdy closed front. In the LL Sartoria cut, I have endeavored to split the apple between these two tendencies. The quarters should be cut at a degree of openness that is not noticed but creates an elegant line.

Cheers

Michael

[jefferyd]

The shape of the fronts is like the shape and width of the lapel- it is a stylistic choice and is totally separate from fit. A garment should be balanced and plumb; the shape of the front can then be cut as straight or as open as one wants.

[Gruto]

it appears to me that the slightly open quarters are achieved by the pitch of the jacket on the wearer rather than by means of the cut.

I like when a jacket's pattern (stripes or checks) falls in a vertical line toward the ground. Some times you see jackets with a waist suppression or cut that distort the vertical line. I think that this distortion could also affect how you see the quarters.

[carl browne]

Interesting thread:

Photos would be a huge help

[Doug]

Many thanks for the replies. I still don’t quite get it. Subtle points make a lot of difference, which is why many of us become bespoke customers.

Old Henry’s point that shirt fronts must not be visible below the button point is an absolute and a given. If the trouser sits properly on the natural waist this should not be an issue.

Michael’s post says the coat has to be cut with the desired quarter design, but it is not clear to me that the cut is playing much of a role in what I am seeing in the LL Sartoria and other commissions. If I look at the picture of the donkey flannel coat on the form, copied below, it appears to me to have closed quarters. Though unbuttoned, the bottom buttonhole sits on top of the bottom button and the buttonhole is cut directly below the center button and not at an angle to it.



If I look at pictures of Michael wearing his coats, on the other hand, what I believe I see is the same orientation of buttonholes although the bottom buttonhole now sits to the side and not on top of the bottom button—i.e., slightly open quarters. The quarters are cut mostly straight, with only a very slight curve from below the bottom button. The opening of the quarters appears to be substantially more than the cut would indicate. Still, the line of the coat despite the slight opening still looks clean and the lines on coats with overchecks or stripes fall straight.



This is what I see from A&S, in some of the pictures Manton has posted of his coats (some of which I believe were made by Old Henry), and I refer also to pictures in the "Who is ready for fall" thread in the Best of Bespoke Forum. I also see this in Steed coats including my own, and intend to ask Edwin about it. Commissions by Will Boehlke of asuitablewardrobe, as per the photo below, seem to employ the same formula.



Either I am being deceived by some subtle visual effect or these looks are achieved more by the fit of the coat on the wearer rather than the cut--accordingly I appeal for further wisdom from the experts. I am just trying to learn more about this and the method/aesthetic behind it to become—I hope--a better customer.

[Costi]

What you see on the cutting table or even on the mannequin is not exactly what you see on the customer. The pitch of a sleeve, for instance, may look perfect on a mannequin and quite a bit off on the actual customer. I think a similar illusion applies to the appearence of the quarters: they look more closed on the mannequin, mostly because it has no hips. But the cutter will know how much to cut away for a good result ON THE ACTUAL WEARER, which he needs to imagine, based on his experience and vision. So yes, it's sort of an optical illusion: the quarters do look more open on the customer than on the dummy or with the coat lying flat on the table, but that's how it's supposed to be.

[jefferyd]

A balanced garment should be plumb- the grain should run straight up and down on both sides. Two rather extreme examples to illustrate the importance of this principle.



Were the lines to splay out or cross, it would indicate a problem with the fit of the garment. Once the garment is balanced and plum, the shape of the front edge can be drawn in any way desired.

And example of what looks like what you call "open quarters" here

would actually be considered very bad fit were it on the customer for whom it was cut and not a mannequin. The fronts are actually cut closed- relative to the grain of the cloth but splay open due to a problem with the way the garment fits the mannequin.

[Merc]

Many thanks for the replie Commissions by Will Boehlke of asuitablewardrobe, as per the photo below, seem to employ the same formula.
.

Will's jacket doesnt meet jeffrey's standard
but it looks like its not the tailor's fault, but as if the wearer put on a few pounds in the midsection after the garment was made

[Greger]

Plumb would be the warp threads. These threads should hang straight down and not pulled to some diagonal angle. That means after the body fitting you can have the style or fashion fitted. Many tailors the front edge is available for change during the first fitting. It is a good idea to let him know before he chalks the pattern on the cloth. That way your style design is minor adjustments.

[jefferyd]

Will's jacket doesnt meet jeffrey's standard
but it looks like its not the tailor's fault, but as if the wearer put on a few pounds in the midsection after the garment was made

In the photo, Will is not standing in neutral spine- one foot is slightly forward of the other. His weight is carried more on one foot which causes the pelvis to tilt, the spine to curve, and one shoulder to drop slightly.

In other words, one cannot judge the fit of Will's garment from this photo due to his stance.

[alden]

Here are two coats made from the same Shetland cloth (LLTW07).

The first coat is of UK manufacture and the second is Rubinacci from Naples. Both patterns are centered as the coats plumb and are balanced. The cuts are different with the front quarters of the Italian being slightly more open.





Cheers

Michael

[alden]

A balanced garment should be plumb- the grain should run straight up and down on both sides....

Excellent explanation in this post Jeffrey. Thanks for posting the pictures.

In the photo, Will is not standing in neutral spine- one foot is slightly forward of the other. His weight is carried more on one foot which causes the pelvis to tilt, the spine to curve, and one shoulder to drop slightly.

In other words, one cannot judge the fit of Will's garment from this photo due to his stance.

Another example that should warn us not to draw too many conclusions from photos. The front quarters, like other parts of a coat, move in tandem with the wearer. The quarters will open and close as a normal course of business with these movements. As Jeffrey and Frank have pointed out, a forward bend or tilt of the body will open the quarters while a back wards or exaggerated throwing back of the shoulders will close them.

Cheers

Michael