Antoniou or Sims & MacDonald vs the Georges

[Edward Bainbridge]

I'll probably go up to London next week and I'd like to take the opportunity to see a tailor for something between one and three suits. I'm afraid I can't afford SR prices, and after asking around and searching the forum, the reasonable alternatives seem to be Christos Antoniou or Sims & MacDonald on the one hand, and one of the Georges on the other. I'm perfectly aware of the fact that I'm the umptieth person in this very situation - I tried to gain as much information as possible from the archives here, so should I have missed a pertinent thread, I'm really sorry to be a pest.

What I'm looking for is pretty much default conservative, not too soft, including somewhat wider lapels, a higher gorge, bit waisted, a higher waistline than the average OTR suit etc. (I'm not talking about a caricature Hollywood mobster suit, only what Henry Poole or their neighbours would have made some time ago, or still might.)

Here are my questions:

A. Concerning the first-level choice: in what aspects are the Georges, who take nearly just half as much, worse? I've read somewhere concerning George of Cleveland St that he's "rather MTM" or the like. I understand one difference is that the Georges aren't big on advising the customer, and while I know a bit about suits and don't want anything out of the ordinary, I think I'd be better off with a tailor who's not only able but willing to give advice. Would I have to walk to Regent Street, pick and buy the cloth and buttons and carry them back for the Georges, then mark where to put the shears?

B. The next question is between Sims & Macdonald and Mr Antoniou. From what I read, the latter is really good. Would you say he's lacking anything compared to Savile Row, other than the address, obviously? Do S&M have any advantages over him, be it in terms of skills, guidance, prices, range of cloths?

C. According to your experience, what are the actual costs: how much would I pay on top of the "3-piece from £something" quote for a non-fancy, old-style good cloth? Not of the kind that shimmies at the first breeze, or wears through after an hour of sitting. I never know if they're more expensive or less than those Super790s.

[Pagoda]

Having used both Sims & Macdonald and George (Cleveland Street) I think I can at least help you with a few brief observations on the two firms:


Sims
====

Process:
Sims cut on premises and have the tailoring done in the London Area – I have not yet found out whether this is in a workshop or outwork. They will not always draft a paper pattern for you, but should do so if you request it. There is (usually) one fitting, which suited me since I don’t live in the city. They will happily advise you on styling, cloth and the like, even though not to the extent of their neighbours across the street where the tailor took half an hour, numerous patterns and cloth bolts to explain my lining – options.
Sims will produce pretty much anything you ask for; they do however shy away from unlined jackets.

Work:
I found their suits to be of a very good quality – they do lack the final finesse of a SR suit, but I haven’t found a flaw in their suits to date. The fit is excellent and exactly what I asked for. They will cut their trousers low as a default, so mention it if you need / want a higher cut. Detailing is fine; the buttons are horn and they will by default include little things like a silk loop on the reverse of the lapel and so on.

Price:
Standard worsteds (e.g. Holland and Sherry) are around 900-1000 pounds for a two piece suit; my last commission was a Minnis Fresco for 1050 pounds.

Overall I like working with Sims and I’m very happy with their suits.
Another option in a similar price range might be Chris Kerr, even though I have never seen his work a few friends swear by him and I might give him a try for the things Sims won’t do (like unlined jackets).


George
=====
Process:
George was very friendly and helpful -- I believe he is quite sensitive to how you approach him. He helped me with my choice of fabric and styling. I don’t know if he creates a paper pattern for each customer, but would doubt it. You will most probably have one fitting with George. He is a tad particular about what he will or will not do – a friend had him reject his idea of patch pockets on trousers (Even though I can actually understand that)

Work:
I liked George and hoped he would do well – sadly the finished suit is definitely nowhere near what Sims and Macdonald turn out. The fit is not as good (granted, it was the first suit and I could have him take a second or third look at it), but the work is a bit sloppy, too. The cuff buttons are not aligned properly, there are loose threads and the general feeling of the suit is a little untidy.
George will cut the trousers quite high (a little too high for my taste), but can be persuaded to lower them a little – even though this requires a bit of verbal effort.

Price:
Around half of what Sims charges.


I hope this helps – as I’m still new in the bespoke world, I’m not as skilled in judging a tailor as other members.

[storeynicholas]

Connock & Lockie are a little more expensive but worth a thought.
NJS

[Edward Bainbridge]

Thanks a lot indeed for the details response, it does help a lot. Your experiences confirm my suspicion that I'd be better off with one suit from Sims, C&L or Mr Antoniou than with two that don't really fit.

[djwhite]

I have found Mr Antoniou to be very good, I recently had a lightweight Blazer made for my summer break, SB, 2 Button, half lined. He did an excellent job, he is now making me up a sports coat in a H&S Highland Glen cloth.

I had two fittings for the Blazer, not much advice received but then I did not solicit any having a very clear idea of what I wanted and what works for me.

Price wise I believe a 2 piece in a reasonable cloth runs to 900 - 1000 , good value just don't expect SR surroundings!

I can not offer any comparisons with the others you mentioned having not used them personally.

[Edward Bainbridge]

Thanks! Never mind the surroundings, that's not even on my list.

[Pagoda]

C&L are *definitely* worth a try, the only thing that put me off was that the tailor told me he would need 3 fittings at least for the unlined coat I enquired about. Generally a very good thing, but since my stays in the city are limited in number, not an option for me.
Also, I was quoted around 1700 pounds for a suit that at Sims cost around 1000 for. (same Minnis cloth). For the 600 pounds you get multiple fittings, hand sewn button holes, a lot of advice and probably a bit more hand sewing overall. I can't compare the fit, unfortunately.
Having said that, I never regretted going with Sims; they are lovely and helpful people (and the personal factor does matter to me) and I feel I get good value for my money.

[bquinn]

Connock and Lockie are significantly more expensive than Sims & MacDonald, as Pagoda reported. I've just placed an order with C&L, myself, after investigating my options. This is my first "true bespoke" commission, and to me, the extra fittings, the additional handwork, advice, and the explanations of not just what is being done, but why, are well worth the additional price.

You might also consider Chris Kerr, in Soho. The price he quoted was slightly more than Sims & MacDonald, but not by much, and I was very impressed by the examples of his work that I saw.

[Edward Bainbridge]

You might also consider Chris Kerr, in Soho. The price he quoted was slightly more than Sims & MacDonald, but not by much, and I was very impressed by the examples of his work that I saw.

No doubt he's a very able man, but I'm afraid that's a bit too expensive for me at the moment. His website says suits start at £1200, while Sims & MacDonald's says £875. (I understand Mr Antoniou's prices are similar.) Also, I'm not sure if his style isn't too much showbiz for me. Then again, I'm sure he's able to do whatever style I have in mind. Connock and Lockie are even a bit more expensive than Chris Kerr, if I understood that correctly.

[Edward Bainbridge]

Just saw some pictures of a pair of trousers made by Mr Antoniou: http://www.styleforum.net/showthread.php?t=72621
They look rather ghastly to me, but that might be because of the customer's wishes. The waist looks squeezed, too, but he might have gained weight since the last fitting.

Ah, it's a pity nobody (here) seems to have experiences with both C Antoniou and Sims & MacDonald. (The posts above are still very helpful, though!)

[bquinn]

No doubt he's a very able man, but I'm afraid that's a bit too expensive for me at the moment. His website says suits start at £1200, while Sims & MacDonald's says £875. (I understand Mr Antoniou's prices are similar.) Also, I'm not sure if his style isn't too much showbiz for me. Then again, I'm sure he's able to do whatever style I have in mind. Connock and Lockie are even a bit more expensive than Chris Kerr, if I understood that correctly.

For reference, Sims & MacDonald quoted me £1000, vs £1300 quoted by Chris Kerr for a suit in identical cloth. On the other hand, since I'm a large man, it's possible that the quote from Sims included a surcharge, while Mr. Kerr's may not have. Connock and Lockie's quote was quite a bit more than either, but was nonetheless my choice in the end. The impression I got from speaking with both was that Chris Kerr was much less confined to a house cut than was Sims & MacDonald. That shouldn't be a problem if you like the Sims & MacDonald house cut, of course. You might also want to speak to Graham Browne, in the City. They're in the price range of Sims & MacDonald, perhaps a bit cheaper. In any case, before you commission a suit, it's well worth visiting all the tailors you're considering, to see examples of their work, ask questions about the process and prices, and generally get a feel for what they would be like to work with. It's best to phone ahead, but my experience was that they were happy to talk to me.

[Lugano]

FWIW here is a linen jacket made for me by George in May of this year. George has made me two suits, one blazer, and one linen jacket. Good value for the prices he charges, the main criticisms I would say are the jackets' shoulders are a bit unnatural, and the lapels are not as wide as would be optimal. In addition to other comments on this thread, George's is one for early risers given its approx opening hours of 7am -2pm, whereas Antoniou probably closes around 7pm.

CIMG0826b.JPG

[Edward Bainbridge]

Thanks. Whichever tailor I choose, this reminds me to ask what their default is for things like lapel width, and if need be, to talk about it with them.

[judge holden]

Allow me to give this topic, upon which I stumbled while browsing the net in search for references to Mr Antoniou, a little kick.

I have been a client of Mr Antoniou since 1993. While I have not been to his shop recently - I think the last suit I commissioned from him was in 2001 - he must have made me by now about 15 suits, as well as two tweed jackets and a dinner jacket. The first two suits he made for me in 1993 I still wear today, which tells you something about the quality of his work I suppose.

Mr Antoniou is an extremely pleasant gentleman (sometimes perhaps he is too nice; a few times while I was sitting in his shop he was not treated very well by other customers who came in for alterations to stuff that was not made by him) and in my view a real craftsman - I seem to remember he once told me that before he set up his own shop (his first shop was actually in Charlotte Street) he worked 'downstairs' at Savile Row (maybe even at Henry Poole). As far as I can tell he offers a fully bespoke service, cutting and sewing the jacket himself in his shop and offering 3 fittings. For the trousers he uses somebody else I think. It is true the shop is not very grand, perhaps even a bit shabby, but I do not think that matters a lot when you look at the suits he produces. The main reason he can offer these very competitive prices is, as he told me, that he does not have the 'overhead' that the tailors at The Row have.

I am overall very happy with his work. That does not mean that he is flawless; I once ordered a 3 pc suit but the waistcoat was frankly a disaster (however, to his defense I must say that at the time I did not very well know what I wanted and requested some changes at the third fitting which did not turn out that well). The shoulder lines of the suits also vary somewhat and I have one suit which clearly has 'slack' just below the neck. But hey, are little mistakes not part of the charm of bespoke?

While Mr Antoniou is certainly prepared to listen to your wishes and demands, he does have his own ideas about how a suit should look like. I usually had to convince him to make the waist more fitted and to have the trouser length a tad shorter. I think he essentially cuts the same pattern all the time, which works very well if you are after a classic three button SB suit. However, when I ordered my dinner jacket, which I wanted SB with peaked lapels, the lapels were basically the same size and width as 'normal' lapels you would find on a DB suit. Obviously, for a dinner jacket somewhat wider and larger lapels are much smarter.

Finally, like most English tailors, he is not particularly good with lighter suitings such as linen. I have ordered a couple of Irish linen suits from him but they wear and feel basically just as heavy as a standard 13oz winter suiting. Unlined or unconstructed suits he looks very wary upon.

To conclude, I consider Mr Antoniou a very good tailor, in particular if you are looking for classic English cut suits for North-Western European climates.

[Edward Bainbridge]

For several reasons, I decided to go with Mr Georgiou. First fitting's are due, but because of a stupid accident, I'm not sure when I'll be able to go up to London. I'll try and tell more then.