Mr. Matt Deckard on his Fedora Lounge stated that the Borsalino hat is not as good as it used to be.
If Borsalino makes a poor hat, then who makes a good hat?
How is Lock?
How is Optimo out of Chicago? I just bought one which is being made.
Ed Hayes is very happy with Orlando of Worth & Worth.
I bought a Christy's hat today on the spur of the moment at H. Herzfeld. I was under the evil influence of Mr. Collarmelton.
Thank you for your responses.
Who Makes a Good Hat?
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Mark Seitelman
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Ah, Mark, you have to watch that Collarmelton -- his influence can be powerful indeed!
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Matt Deckard
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Quality is always a touchy subject on the other bulletin boards. I will tell you what I know from what I have seen.
Quality depends on what you're looking for in a hat.
What I look for is a soft hat that won’t slouch after rain and won’t shrink. All modern hats shrink, vintage hats from what have seen do not. According to a couple of the hatters I have spoken to, they have no clue what the process old felt makers used was that kept the felts from shrinking.
First of all you will hear many makers talk about content and how a 100% beaver is the best you can buy. What I am going to say is very controversial on some forums. Beaver is not always the best material for a felt hat. It depends on the quality of the fur used whether it is hare, nutria or beaver. There are different qualities to the fur of all the animals.
For a stiff hat like that you'd see on the plains of Texas, nothing beats a 100% beaver felt hat. The hat is shellacked stiff and can take the rain without flinching. The set back is that 100% beaver hats do not usually make good soft hats you’ll see more about this as you read further.
For a fedora which is meant to be a soft hat, the felt you are looking for is usually a blend. Blending a beaver fur with a nutria or hare fur allows the hat to be malleable without losing integrity. If the hat has a good memory and a felt hat can be bent and squished, it will not end up cracking easily at points where you are putting heavy stress.
With felt not meant to be soft, or for stiff hats, you quickly get what I call the grocery bag effect. The felt breaks down at the areas where creased. This is obviously more apparent with thick stiff hats Like Akubras or Cowboy hats, though if you have the wrong soft dress hat made of bad materials (like I said it is all about the fur used) you can ruin it off the bat and have a hole in a few months.
You need to remember too that some hats just aren't meant to be squished or floppy. Some hats are work hats that need to be stiff to hold up against the elements, and that is why there are different types of hats.
Below are pictures of my Graphite colored Optimo.
I treat my Graphite like a red headed step child. It's taken the abuse for about a year now and this half beaver and half nutria blend doesn't slouch in the rain like all my other modern brand hats have. It gets softer and softer... to me that is a benefit. I've seen Optimo take flak for their light weight hats because they are very very floppy. Optimo does make a heavy weight hat too.
Light weight hats have their place and the demand for them is strong.
I actually preffer lightweight over heavyweight.
Borsalino
I have seen several modern Borsalinos over the past few years and have owned two. Both were ruined by light rain. There is no density to their felt when compared to quality hats and the two I owned literally acted like cardboard in the rain. They may have had a reputation for quality, though that reputation is no longer valid. Within the first week I noticed that fur was just coming off the hat, very loose felt. The color is also topical and not all the way through the felt. So my grey hat after a few wearing started looking brown at points where the felt flexed. They have a roll up model which from what I hear does not come back to it’s original shape without a few problems. The construction of the hats is sub par.
Herbert Johnson
I owned two modern Herbert Johnson hats and I returned one because I was upset with the service. I believe they use an all hare felt though it is not of the highest quality. Their hats will slouch over time. The felt is dense, though cannot be rolled. The construction of the hats is sub par.
Stetson
Better than Borsalino by a long shot. The felt quality is luck of the draw as the density and thickness of their dress hats is all over the place. They ad a lot of powder to their felt to even out the color, so if worn in the rain beware the dripping color. They shrink pretty fast and the name has been driven into the ground by the current owners.
Lock Hatters
I haven’t seen a modern Lock felt hat in person, I own a couple eight piece caps. I have had a few friends go overseas to England and to Lock hatters. From what I hear they are a step above Herbert Johnson. I’ll find out more.
Gelot in Paris
Junk.
The hats I have owned from hatters like Gary White and Worth and Worth were upsetting to me as they did not last more than a year without gaining a hole in their crown. I know that I am supposed to grab by the brim, though I am a rule breaker. I want my hats to take what I dish out.
Optimo hats so far has the best product I have seen on the market. The felt is the closest I have seen to vintage. Very dense and very malleable, I have seen no cracks or sagging in the hats even with the most horrendous of punishment. They do have the Persian flaw of shrinking over time, though with blocking by a competent hatter you should have no problem wearing their hats for decades.
Another plus for Optimo is that the hatter, Graham, is truly passionate about hats and the materials used in them, unlike most hatters I meet. Graham’s hats still have the liners stitched in and the bows have a hidden stitch. The first time I saw one of his hats I thought it was vintage and was surprised to find out it was modern.
Quality depends on what you're looking for in a hat.
What I look for is a soft hat that won’t slouch after rain and won’t shrink. All modern hats shrink, vintage hats from what have seen do not. According to a couple of the hatters I have spoken to, they have no clue what the process old felt makers used was that kept the felts from shrinking.
First of all you will hear many makers talk about content and how a 100% beaver is the best you can buy. What I am going to say is very controversial on some forums. Beaver is not always the best material for a felt hat. It depends on the quality of the fur used whether it is hare, nutria or beaver. There are different qualities to the fur of all the animals.
For a stiff hat like that you'd see on the plains of Texas, nothing beats a 100% beaver felt hat. The hat is shellacked stiff and can take the rain without flinching. The set back is that 100% beaver hats do not usually make good soft hats you’ll see more about this as you read further.
For a fedora which is meant to be a soft hat, the felt you are looking for is usually a blend. Blending a beaver fur with a nutria or hare fur allows the hat to be malleable without losing integrity. If the hat has a good memory and a felt hat can be bent and squished, it will not end up cracking easily at points where you are putting heavy stress.
With felt not meant to be soft, or for stiff hats, you quickly get what I call the grocery bag effect. The felt breaks down at the areas where creased. This is obviously more apparent with thick stiff hats Like Akubras or Cowboy hats, though if you have the wrong soft dress hat made of bad materials (like I said it is all about the fur used) you can ruin it off the bat and have a hole in a few months.
You need to remember too that some hats just aren't meant to be squished or floppy. Some hats are work hats that need to be stiff to hold up against the elements, and that is why there are different types of hats.
Below are pictures of my Graphite colored Optimo.
I treat my Graphite like a red headed step child. It's taken the abuse for about a year now and this half beaver and half nutria blend doesn't slouch in the rain like all my other modern brand hats have. It gets softer and softer... to me that is a benefit. I've seen Optimo take flak for their light weight hats because they are very very floppy. Optimo does make a heavy weight hat too.
Light weight hats have their place and the demand for them is strong.
I actually preffer lightweight over heavyweight.
Borsalino
I have seen several modern Borsalinos over the past few years and have owned two. Both were ruined by light rain. There is no density to their felt when compared to quality hats and the two I owned literally acted like cardboard in the rain. They may have had a reputation for quality, though that reputation is no longer valid. Within the first week I noticed that fur was just coming off the hat, very loose felt. The color is also topical and not all the way through the felt. So my grey hat after a few wearing started looking brown at points where the felt flexed. They have a roll up model which from what I hear does not come back to it’s original shape without a few problems. The construction of the hats is sub par.
Herbert Johnson
I owned two modern Herbert Johnson hats and I returned one because I was upset with the service. I believe they use an all hare felt though it is not of the highest quality. Their hats will slouch over time. The felt is dense, though cannot be rolled. The construction of the hats is sub par.
Stetson
Better than Borsalino by a long shot. The felt quality is luck of the draw as the density and thickness of their dress hats is all over the place. They ad a lot of powder to their felt to even out the color, so if worn in the rain beware the dripping color. They shrink pretty fast and the name has been driven into the ground by the current owners.
Lock Hatters
I haven’t seen a modern Lock felt hat in person, I own a couple eight piece caps. I have had a few friends go overseas to England and to Lock hatters. From what I hear they are a step above Herbert Johnson. I’ll find out more.
Gelot in Paris
Junk.
The hats I have owned from hatters like Gary White and Worth and Worth were upsetting to me as they did not last more than a year without gaining a hole in their crown. I know that I am supposed to grab by the brim, though I am a rule breaker. I want my hats to take what I dish out.
Optimo hats so far has the best product I have seen on the market. The felt is the closest I have seen to vintage. Very dense and very malleable, I have seen no cracks or sagging in the hats even with the most horrendous of punishment. They do have the Persian flaw of shrinking over time, though with blocking by a competent hatter you should have no problem wearing their hats for decades.
Another plus for Optimo is that the hatter, Graham, is truly passionate about hats and the materials used in them, unlike most hatters I meet. Graham’s hats still have the liners stitched in and the bows have a hidden stitch. The first time I saw one of his hats I thought it was vintage and was surprised to find out it was modern.
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Mark Seitelman
- Posts: 965
- Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2005 8:42 am
- Location: New York City
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Matt, thanks for your response.
I haven't had too many problems with my Borsalinos. My only compliant is that some of the hats are a little too soft. I seem to like a harder hat along the lines of the Lock hat.
I eagerly await the arrival of my hat from Optimo.
I haven't had too many problems with my Borsalinos. My only compliant is that some of the hats are a little too soft. I seem to like a harder hat along the lines of the Lock hat.
I eagerly await the arrival of my hat from Optimo.
Matt:
I own three hats that I wear with regularity. The one I wear most is a battered brown hat, marked real Fur Felt that I bought in 1986 in Simpsons of Piccadilly. It is their house brand. I don’t know whether that qualifies as vintage, but it has been in many soaking rains and has not shrunk. It has been cleaned and blocked twice and the only real damage it shows is that the leather liner at this point has cracked in places. There is probably some wear where I grab it at the pinch to take on and put off. I have been reprimanded for that, but I can’t help it. If there is wear there, I can’t see it in the mirror and at most, imagine it upon inspection.
I also wear two Borsalinos. A dark gray and a tan. The gray one is newer and has monotone printing on the liner and is clearly of lower quality finishing. It is also stiffer - in fact, it is a stiff felt. The model is Como II and while the felt seem to be of good quality the construction is inferior to the tan one. The brim is finished with whipsticthing. I mistakenly bought this a bit small, but the hat has not shrunk in the rain. The tan one is a beautiful soft felt, with a nicely finished interior. It is probably 5 to eight years old, although I don’t recall. I don’t like the shape as much as the brown Simpson, but on objective standards, it is a real beauty. I have done a pretty good job of keeping this one from getting soaked too often. Because of the light color, I wear it in the Sppring and Summer.
The most beautiful hat I have is a vintage dove gray Borsalino Homburg. The interior finishing and felt is far superior to the tan Borsalino. The only sign of age is that the elastic on the little buttonhole keeper is dried out and loose. I don’t ever wear it, because I don’t wear Homburgs. I keep it because it is really beautiful. I got it from my brother, who bought it on ebay in my size instead of his.
The vintage Borsalino is clearly superior to the three more modern hats that I have, but I don’t know if I am comparing apples to apples in the Borsalino line. I will say that I don’t observe the shrinkage problem you comment on in my own hats.
I own three hats that I wear with regularity. The one I wear most is a battered brown hat, marked real Fur Felt that I bought in 1986 in Simpsons of Piccadilly. It is their house brand. I don’t know whether that qualifies as vintage, but it has been in many soaking rains and has not shrunk. It has been cleaned and blocked twice and the only real damage it shows is that the leather liner at this point has cracked in places. There is probably some wear where I grab it at the pinch to take on and put off. I have been reprimanded for that, but I can’t help it. If there is wear there, I can’t see it in the mirror and at most, imagine it upon inspection.
I also wear two Borsalinos. A dark gray and a tan. The gray one is newer and has monotone printing on the liner and is clearly of lower quality finishing. It is also stiffer - in fact, it is a stiff felt. The model is Como II and while the felt seem to be of good quality the construction is inferior to the tan one. The brim is finished with whipsticthing. I mistakenly bought this a bit small, but the hat has not shrunk in the rain. The tan one is a beautiful soft felt, with a nicely finished interior. It is probably 5 to eight years old, although I don’t recall. I don’t like the shape as much as the brown Simpson, but on objective standards, it is a real beauty. I have done a pretty good job of keeping this one from getting soaked too often. Because of the light color, I wear it in the Sppring and Summer.
The most beautiful hat I have is a vintage dove gray Borsalino Homburg. The interior finishing and felt is far superior to the tan Borsalino. The only sign of age is that the elastic on the little buttonhole keeper is dried out and loose. I don’t ever wear it, because I don’t wear Homburgs. I keep it because it is really beautiful. I got it from my brother, who bought it on ebay in my size instead of his.
The vintage Borsalino is clearly superior to the three more modern hats that I have, but I don’t know if I am comparing apples to apples in the Borsalino line. I will say that I don’t observe the shrinkage problem you comment on in my own hats.
Dear Matt -- or Mark or Dov,
I've a simple question, doubtless simply answered by a knowledgeable hat wearer, which I am not: why are the edges of the brim bound? I'm accustomed to seeing the brims of homburgs bound, but I thought that fedoras were generally self-bound, that the felt was sufficient dense and well-finished that the ribbon around the edge (aesthetically intrusive, to my eyes) was unnecessary. Is this an innovation, perhaps necessitated by the loss of hatmaking practices of the past?
With thanks for your kindness in enlightening me, I am
Yours,
Robb
I've a simple question, doubtless simply answered by a knowledgeable hat wearer, which I am not: why are the edges of the brim bound? I'm accustomed to seeing the brims of homburgs bound, but I thought that fedoras were generally self-bound, that the felt was sufficient dense and well-finished that the ribbon around the edge (aesthetically intrusive, to my eyes) was unnecessary. Is this an innovation, perhaps necessitated by the loss of hatmaking practices of the past?
With thanks for your kindness in enlightening me, I am
Yours,
Robb
Of the four hats I mentioned, the brown Simpson has a plain cut edge. The dark gray Borsalino has a whip-stitch edge and the tan Borsalino and the Borsalino Homburg have ribbon-bound edges. If there are any “rules” on what sort of edging is more or less formal, they are just that. None of the methods appear more or less formal to me, without that contextual knowledge. That includes the cut edge, which works and looks just fine. Also, I would not conclude that the raw-edged hat is of greater quality, based on my sample. To me, the different treatments appear to be a matter of preference. I like the stitched edge the best, but to say I have a preference is an overstatement. It would be at the bottom of my list in importance when choosing between two hats.RWS wrote:Dear Matt -- or Mark or Dov,
I've a simple question, doubtless simply answered by a knowledgeable hat wearer, which I am not: why are the edges of the brim bound? I'm accustomed to seeing the brims of homburgs bound, but I thought that fedoras were generally self-bound, that the felt was sufficient dense and well-finished that the ribbon around the edge (aesthetically intrusive, to my eyes) was unnecessary. Is this an innovation, perhaps necessitated by the loss of hatmaking practices of the past?
With thanks for your kindness in enlightening me, I am
Yours,
Robb
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Mark Seitelman
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Dear Robb,
One can finish a fedora frim with grosgrain. It makes it a little dressier and unusual.
I'm having Optimo finish my hat in this manner.
Graham told me that it is preferable to finish the brim with either grosgrain or stitching. I did not ask whether this was either a design or craft preference. I'll ask him.
One can finish a fedora frim with grosgrain. It makes it a little dressier and unusual.
I'm having Optimo finish my hat in this manner.
Graham told me that it is preferable to finish the brim with either grosgrain or stitching. I did not ask whether this was either a design or craft preference. I'll ask him.
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Matt Deckard
- Posts: 75
- Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:14 am
- Location: Los Angeles
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The edges on the ones pictured are bound because I like the look. I have a couple raw edged hats from Optimo like the one pictured below. Bound edge hats do hold their brim shape better than unbound hats, same with hats that have a self felted edge. I just preffered the bound edge look for the hats in the above pictures. It's like what you would find on some of the hats made in the 30's and 40's.
unbound Optimo
unbound Optimo
If any are looking for a panama hat, I have info on one of the top makers Brent Black. His Montecristi Panama hats are handmade and vary in cost based on the tightness of the weave. I own one of his hats a model called 'Aficionado' that I am very happy with. His web site is loaded with info on Panama hats and he is a gentleman to do business with.
http://www.brentblack.com/
http://www.brentblack.com/
I get all my hats from Orlando of Worth and Worth in Manhattan. I would like to try Optimo. I like Orlando because his service is good, the felt is rich looking, he will do a custom lining, and the colors are special. I have a couple of panamas from him that I quite like as well.
I am 57 and quite bald and believe me I need a hat or its constant colds for me.
I am 57 and quite bald and believe me I need a hat or its constant colds for me.
Any opinions on Cervo hats? I have seen them praised on some sites as the "new Borsalinos," i.e., occupying the same quality niche that Borsalino forfeited. I picked up a couple of Cervo fedoras--one in dark gray, one in light gray-- at Baron's California hats in Burbank about four years ago. I have been extremely satisfied with them. The light gray one has probably been my most used hat. They are the best hats I own, followed by Baron's own creations, a couple of which I had custom-made to my specifications. The Barons are decent, finer than the one Stetson fedora I own, but not "crushable." I asked Matt Deckard about Cervo some time ago. As of that time he had no experience with them. I was just wondering if anybody here did and how they stacked up comparatively with Lock or Optimo, for example.
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Will
I have a Herbert Johnson and several Locks. I'm not expert but Lock's quality seems better than Johnson's, and they are somewhat less expensive as well.
One major problem with Borsalino is their unacceptable penchant for putting their name on the hatband.
One major problem with Borsalino is their unacceptable penchant for putting their name on the hatband.
I, too am curious about Cervo, but I have no real interest in new hats, except for one in blue that I intend to buy in the fall (don’t know from whom, yet).
In the last few months I have been voraciously buying vintage hats on e-bay. I started off curious about vintage v. modern felts, but now I have just been buying out of interest in the variety. I have to say that I have been stunned by the higher quality vintage Borsalinos. Even the lower quality vintage Borsalinos are top notch. Since I have overbought, I would be glad to send some of my surplus to an LL member who is starting out on hats. If you wear a 7 or 7 and 1/8 and are interested, pm me. No promises and I don’t yet know which I want to shed, but I am sure I can send something your way.
In the last few months I have been voraciously buying vintage hats on e-bay. I started off curious about vintage v. modern felts, but now I have just been buying out of interest in the variety. I have to say that I have been stunned by the higher quality vintage Borsalinos. Even the lower quality vintage Borsalinos are top notch. Since I have overbought, I would be glad to send some of my surplus to an LL member who is starting out on hats. If you wear a 7 or 7 and 1/8 and are interested, pm me. No promises and I don’t yet know which I want to shed, but I am sure I can send something your way.
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