What is HAND MADE?

[Costi]

Gents, thank you for crediting me with the capacity to understand what we are debating.
A cutter has no need for large sheets of paper. All he needs is the cloth, a piece of chalk, a measuring tape and a couple of drawing tools (a square, possibly a curve drawing tool). Using templates can be a source of errors rather than a drafting aid for an artisan. I suppose drawing the pattern of a 58 coat for a customer with a protruding belly is not a simple matter of shifting two lines on a block pattern for a 48 slim coat. As for asymmetry, after drawing the pattern on the folded cloth, the cutter will adjust the lines on each side to take asymmetry into account before putting shears to cloth.
Yes, listening to the customer is important, but there are also "silent" customers who simply ask for a suit in the house style. The resulting garment is no less bespoke. Not all clients are very specific about their requirements, so what matters most in my opinion is the skill of the artisan and his ability to INTERPRET the customer's request, as David Hober aptly explained.
I thought we were trying to point out how bespoke is DIFFERENT from MTM, not what they (may) have in common. The difference lies first of all in the means and methods, and it shows in the results. If we leave the "details" to the maker and only require that he listen to the client and do whatever he thinks best, we make no difference between MTM and bespoke.

[storeynicholas]

I hesitate to comment in this thread because there are certainly people here who know much more of the technical processes than I do. However, for what it is worth, my understanding of MTM British suits is that the factory cuts and makes the panels according to standard sizes and patterns and these (not the patterns) are adjusted to the customer's dimensions and, so far as possible, to accommodate any specific requests that can easily be accommodated, according to the standard pattern. Bespoke suits might start off by the cutter adjusting standard outline block patterns to the customer's dimensions (including drops and prominences and other peculiarities) and to accommodate all his specific requirements. The US system I understood to be broadly the same, except that 'custom' is often used to describe 'bespoke'. Maybe the term 'bespoke' does not have a ready translation into Italian (so far as I know) as it related originally to the reserving of the cloth, rather than the process for making it up. Therefore, properly speaking, perhaps, the Italian for handmade to measure (fatto a mano su misura) is the equivalent of 'bespoke' or 'custom' - even if we do not know how rigorously the term is applied. There are several totally bespoke goods still made apart from clothes - certain gunmakers even make all the pins individually and, so far as other totally handmade goods are concerned - there are the Havana cigars made by Habanos SA and certain independent makers. Such guns are quite different from guns from stock and cigars that are totalemente a mano tripa larga - totally handmade long-filler [wet] cigars - are quite different from the machine made cigars, made from dried, homogenized, Cuban tobacco in European factories - but they are free to describe the cigars as containing Cuban tobacco. It all really comes down to an understanding and appreciation of the differences in the result - and insisting on the proper processes that get us to the right result. Apart from that, we are trying to describe an elephant without a picture of one!
NJS

[Costi]

Apart from that, we are trying to describe an elephant without a picture of one!

Nicholas, you are right, there you go:



This is an MTM elephant, of course

Interesting distinction that you make between how MTM and bespoke works with a pattern.

[storeynicholas]

I knew that I shouldn't have had those papa dobles!
NJS

[Costi]

In ultimate analysis, clothes are but an instrument to the elegant dresser: how they are made is only relevant as far as it will have an impact on dress.
MTM clothes may fit reasonably well (if you're lucky and you don't stray much from the factory's block pattern), you may get to specify some details, you might even be able to bring your own fabric (but only rarely). What is sure is that you will have to go with the "house style" and not be able to give indications such as drape, amount of fullness in the chest, how flared the skirt should be, where the lapels should roll and how bellied or straight they should be, buttoning point, shoulder style, sleeve fullness, size of armscye etc. It is a ready-made hot dog where you get to choose between mustard or ketchup to go with it. Some garments are almost impossible to get right with MTM, such as sports jackets with complications (yokes & pleats, action backs & half belts etc.) - or a tailcoat!
Bespoke tailoring, on the other hand, gives the dresser a full array of possibilities and the outcome is only limited by his imagination, his taste and the artisan's skills. Good fit is a sure thing, even if your body is very far away from the ideal silhouettes for which block patterns are usually developed. We are not talking about the occasional bespoke mishap, all of us have examples in our wardrobes (by the way, perhaps a post on failures would not be uninteresting - many things can be learnt from mistakes); instead we are talking about what is NORMALLY POSSIBLE and MOST USUALLY OBTAINED when working with a professional tailor.
I think this is why the elegant dresser will choose bespoke over MTM, because he is aware of the limitations of MTM, he knows what he wants and that only bespoke (and a long-term cooperation with a group of artisans) can deliver garments with the style and fit that reflect his taste and demands.

[David Hober]

.......
Yes, listening to the customer is important, but there are also "silent" customers who simply ask for a suit in the house style. The resulting garment is no less bespoke. Not all clients are very specific about their requirements, so what matters most in my opinion is the skill of the artisan and his ability to INTERPRET the customer's request, as David Hober aptly explained.
.....

Yes, we are in agreement.


"..... The difference lies first of all in the means and methods, and it shows in the results. If we leave the "details" to the maker and only require that he listen to the client and do whatever he thinks best, we make no difference between MTM and bespoke."

In general I agree as typically there will be an attention to detail with bespoke work that will not be found elsewhere. So identical measurements used in a factory and a small bespoke workshop will yield different results.

This is due to:

1) Artisan skill - both technical and in terms of listening

2) Time put into the work

3) Quality of materials and tools

4) And so on...